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Thread: Z06 spun the reluctor wheel?

  1. #1
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Z06 spun the reluctor wheel?

    Between my 2nd and 3rd pass at the track I yanked the air filter to see if I could get a 10.70 out of it on the motor. It 60íd and then fell on its face. Would only go 1/2 throttle and drove it home normally ... just couldnít go wot. No codes. Got worse over the next week and eventually would only idle.

    When you would give it throttle it would lose ground on the injector (conformed via noid light Ņsp? then a fluke) via the computer.
    Threw another computer in it and tried to crank relearn since it was now throwing a crank sensor code ... no dice ... new sensor ... no dice ... ohmíd wires between sensor - computer and looked it over visually ... all good.


    Now when it starts up it is down two cylinders (4&7) they are getting spark but the injectors are not pulsing. Since both spark and injectors are run via crank signal as well as rpm and Iím getting a consistent rpm it leads me to believe the reluctor spun on launch.

    Thatís all I can come up with. Weíve looked at it via bore scope through the sensor hole and itís still on there but who knows if itís still degreed correctly without pulling the engine.

    So here I am
    Just like ... fuck it ... only the 7th or 8th time the engine has come out.

    02c5z EBM
    408 Callie crank Manley rods diamond pistons with a moneymaker intake manifold. It did good when it did.

    Iíve finally started to fuck with it the last couple months and thatís where Iím at. Figured Iíd see if anyone in our circle has any idea.

  2. #2
    Registered Member Potent68's Avatar

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    I can't say I've ever heard of that and this link makes it look like there's no real reason it would move on it's own assuming it was installed straight.

    http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...-your-ls-crank

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    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Potent68 View Post
    I can't say I've ever heard of that and this link makes it look like there's no real reason it would move on it's own assuming it was installed straight.

    http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...-your-ls-crank
    So.you are reluctant to agree with his diagnosis?

  4. #4
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    I feel like it’s a pretty common issue if you search it. At least when you make decent power.

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    The Sax of Cars Anewconvert's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by windham View Post
    So.you are reluctant to agree with his diagnosis?
    ISWYD

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    Registered Member NHRATA01's Avatar

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    It is known to happen, especially shop builds where it's only held in place by a couple tacks vs OEM. Have read a couple threads where given a choice for high power builds 58x reluctors are preferred because I guess they're less likely to break loose. When you look into the ckps hole, can you also spin the motor over by hand? See if it has visible runout/wobble.

    Also don't think you can do a CASE relearn with an existing ckps code as it won't complete the process.

    Did you lose the tach signal at all? Was having issues with my new motor build last year and had a hard time keeping it running and tossed a random ckps code (0334 maybe?), tach died while driving. 3 tries to get it restarted which according to Tech was because the ecm then moves to the cam sensor for cranking. Once the tune got sorted out that all went away.

  7. #7
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by NHRATA01 View Post
    It is known to happen, especially shop builds where it's only held in place by a couple tacks vs OEM. Have read a couple threads where given a choice for high power builds 58x reluctors are preferred because I guess they're less likely to break loose. When you look into the ckps hole, can you also spin the motor over by hand? See if it has visible runout/wobble.

    Also don't think you can do a CASE relearn with an existing ckps code as it won't complete the process.

    Did you lose the tach signal at all? Was having issues with my new motor build last year and had a hard time keeping it running and tossed a random ckps code (0334 maybe?), tach died while driving. 3 tries to get it restarted which according to Tech was because the ecm then moves to the cam sensor for cranking. Once the tune got sorted out that all went away.
    Rpm is fine
    All coils are firing

    Only issue is #4/7 are not injecting.

  8. #8
    Registered Member Mr. Negative's Avatar

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    A cam/crank correlation test with a scope would confirm this before pulling the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Negative View Post
    A cam/crank correlation test with a scope would confirm this before pulling the engine.
    This

  10. #10
    Registered Member Potent68's Avatar

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    If it's only two cylinders I doubt what I am about to say is applicable, but how is your fuel pressure? Your symptoms at the track and on the way home could be indicative of a failing pump or plugged filter.

  11. #11
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Negative View Post
    A cam/crank correlation test with a scope would confirm this before pulling the engine.
    When you say scope, do you mean actually inspection of the reluctor through the crank sensor hole or do you mean HPTuners?
    Quote Originally Posted by Potent68 View Post
    If it's only two cylinders I doubt what I am about to say is applicable, but how is your fuel pressure? Your symptoms at the track and on the way home could be indicative of a failing pump or plugged filter.
    Fuel pressure is good even on mechanical gauge.

    When it would “lay over” it was shutting injectors off ... like taking the ground away. You could see it with a noid light (which I assumed it was losing power... no... it was losing ground)

    To be fair

    I’ve never heard of reluctor wheel issues on stock or stockish engines. Only when they get to making decent power/torque. My engine was assembled by Futural in Louisiana which is a pretty reputable builder of some badass bullets.

  12. #12
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    I was wondering if there was anything I could do to confirm this via putting it at TDC and seeing where the reluctors teeth were in correlation to the sensor but I doubt it would be even noticeable if it was possible. We are talking as little as 3*

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    https://www.snapon.com/Diagnostics/U...orrelation.htm

    There are other tools that can do this.

    As for 4 and 7 not being triggered from the ecu, I would pin the harness out from the injector to the ecu. With as many times as the motor has been out, it could be something simple like a connector pin just not making the circuit.
    Last edited by 1STLS1; 05-26-2019 at 09:13 AM.

  14. #14
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1STLS1 View Post
    https://www.snapon.com/Diagnostics/U...orrelation.htm

    There are other tools that can do this.

    As for 4 and 7 not being triggered from the ecu, I would pin the harness out from the injector to the ecu. With as many times as the motor has been out, it could be something simple like a connector pin just not making the circuit.
    The main harness we have inspected. From the coils on is yet to be done ... will happen before I pull it again.

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    better than Bryce silverSS's Avatar

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    sounds to me like that shit may be broke

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    Registered Member easttexasws6's Avatar

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    Sounds like it's tyme for a couple hiroshima hurricanes to pick up the slack of those 2 lost cylinders.

  17. #17
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverSS View Post
    sounds to me like that shit may be broke
    The reluctor wheel is fine
    We looked at it with a scope and spun it over by hand to see the rest of it.

    Whether it’s moved 3degrees who knows ?

  18. #18
    Whataburger > * Dr Griswold's Avatar

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    definitely needs a couple teriyaki tornados

    preferably in the 98 flavor

  19. #19
    What the cluck? GldRush98's Avatar

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    It's beijing bomb time

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    Registered Member mogs01gt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    The reluctor wheel is fine
    We looked at it with a scope and spun it over by hand to see the rest of it.
    Whether it’s moved 3degrees who knows ?
    Would three degrees prevent 2 cylinders from firing but allow the rest to fire normally, that doesnt seem right. Have you visual confirm those cylinders are getting spark and fuel?

  21. #21
    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Maybe some Tokyo Twisters

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    Whataburger > * Dr Griswold's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Griswold View Post
    Ouch!

    The pin definitely fell out of that grenade. Makes note to self "29 psi max!!"
    Last edited by 1STLS1; 06-01-2019 at 01:55 AM.

  24. #24
    KFBR392 87f383's Avatar

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    I concur that you should try a set of Nagasaki Noisy Bois.

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    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mogs01gt View Post
    Would three degrees prevent 2 cylinders from firing but allow the rest to fire normally, that doesnt seem right. Have you visual confirm those cylinders are getting spark and fuel?
    Yea seems pretty dumb
    I have confirmed the 4/7 are getting spark but not injector via noid light.

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    Registered Member mogs01gt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    Yea seems pretty dumb
    I have confirmed the 4/7 are getting spark but not injector via noid light.
    I know this is PITA to do but I'd pull out the injector to make sure its firing. Once you confirm spark and fuel, you know its a timing issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    Yea seems pretty dumb
    I have confirmed the 4/7 are getting spark but not injector via noid light.
    Pin the harness out on 4 and 7, ecu to injector, meter it and check for an open. Back probe the connection at the ecu and see if you get the ground signal when cranking.

    I used to keep all the cuttings of open wires i found in harnesses that I had to splice. Insulation intact, looks fine but if you would pull on the 2 ends it would get thinner in an area. Meter it and they showed open. Makes for a long day the first time you see it but once you recognize the symptoms you can get it down to an hour or two. Inspection isn't good enough, meter it.

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    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1STLS1 View Post
    Ouch!

    The pin definitely fell out of that grenade. Makes note to self "29 psi max!!"
    Gonna have to overnight parts from Japan.

  29. #29
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Pulled the engine
    Pulled oil pan to confirm the reluctor wheel did move at some point.

    A few of the teeth look like it hit the main cap and it has scuff marks all over the reluctor ring itself.

  30. #30
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mogs01gt View Post
    I know this is PITA to do but I'd pull out the injector to make sure its firing. Once you confirm spark and fuel, you know its a timing issue.
    We’ve swapped injectors

    Still the same ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1STLS1 View Post
    Pin the harness out on 4 and 7, ecu to injector, meter it and check for an open. Back probe the connection at the ecu and see if you get the ground signal when cranking.

    I used to keep all the cuttings of open wires i found in harnesses that I had to splice. Insulation intact, looks fine but if you would pull on the 2 ends it would get thinner in an area. Meter it and they showed open. Makes for a long day the first time you see it but once you recognize the symptoms you can get it down to an hour or two. Inspection isn't good enough, meter it.
    We’ve ohm’d the wires from injector to pcm with no out of the ordinary results.

    All wires read good.

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    Retired race car BadCompanyVPWS6's Avatar

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    Crank trigger brother Roger?

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    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadCompanyVPWS6 View Post
    Crank trigger brother Roger?
    What are you talking about? The crank sensor?

    Bottom line is
    Reluctor wheel has scuff marks and some of the teeth are rounded on the edge from contact.

    Ordered a billet steel wheel that’s one piece instead of the 2 piece 24.
    Going to have the crank out this evening and take it to walker La (futural) to let them
    -confirm the wheel is out of place
    -“press” on new billet wheel


    I still need to get a new crank bolt or an arp
    New pickup tube oRing
    Oil pump gaskets

  34. #34
    Registered Member DrivingZiggy's Avatar

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    Roger! Check on my engine while you're there, okay? I'll be ready to commence with it as soon as I sell the house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    What are you talking about? The crank sensor?

    Bottom line is
    Reluctor wheel has scuff marks and some of the teeth are rounded on the edge from contact.

    Ordered a billet steel wheel that’s one piece instead of the 2 piece 24.
    Going to have the crank out this evening and take it to walker La (futural) to let them
    -confirm the wheel is out of place
    -“press” on new billet wheel


    I still need to get a new crank bolt or an arp
    New pickup tube oRing
    Oil pump gaskets
    I have seen a number of hall effect switches with destroyed triggers and still work fine. I have seen some that you could not see the damage but yet a new trigger fix it. With that said, put your meter leads across 2 of the terminals, set your meter to AC voltage and slowly spin the crank. You should be able to read each tooth on the meter with the slight voltage and once it passes it watch it go to zero. Generally, if it creates the signal, its working.

  36. #36
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1STLS1 View Post
    I have seen a number of hall effect switches with destroyed triggers and still work fine. I have seen some that you could not see the damage but yet a new trigger fix it. With that said, put your meter leads across 2 of the terminals, set your meter to AC voltage and slowly spin the crank. You should be able to read each tooth on the meter with the slight voltage and once it passes it watch it go to zero. Generally, if it creates the signal, its working.
    My theory is that it’s working, seeing as the car was getting spark and coil signal, it’s just off by x degrees.

  37. #37
    Registered Member Customer service's Avatar

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    so you are going to have to manually adjust the timing then? How difficult will that be?

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    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Customer service View Post
    so you are going to have to manually adjust the timing then? How difficult will that be?
    No
    I took the crank out
    Put a new wheel on it
    Now it’s about to go back in the short block and back into the car.

  39. #39
    I live where you vacation MiLLs's Avatar

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    your trigger wheel moving would cause a concern with timing as a whole. no? not just two cylinders
    using a lab scope as mentioned above would've been best choice before ripping and tearing.

  40. #40
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MiLLs View Post
    your trigger wheel moving would cause a concern with timing as a whole. no? not just two cylinders
    using a lab scope as mentioned above would've been best choice before ripping and tearing.
    They said that once it gets so out of wack it would start to kill injectors

    I did use a bore scope to see the reluctor wheel but there is no like magic line or dots that need to be lined up. If that was the case I wouldn’t have had to use a jig in order to get the new one back on to the correct degree.

  41. #41
    I live where you vacation MiLLs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    They said that once it gets so out of wack it would start to kill injectors

    I did use a bore scope to see the reluctor wheel but there is no like magic line or dots that need to be lined up. If that was the case I wouldn’t have had to use a jig in order to get the new one back on to the correct degree.
    i meant a oscilloscope not bore. that would let you view your actual signal waves that the PCM/ECM is seeing. I can see the computer killing injectors as a protection strategy...Im a Ford guy. No nothing on GM theory and operation

  42. #42
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    So it was the reluctor wheel.

    Put the engine back in the car. It fired up and ran like shit (because of all the computer changes they had done trying to fix the reluctor wheel though the tune before we knew obviously) but it was on all 8 cylinders and had no crank sensor codes so

    Had Matt come over last night and he roughed the tune in and got it to run correctly. Idle is back to normal, revs up fast like it should. Air fuels are so so but it hasn’t been driven or anything since it was fixed so we will be street tuning this week and then it will be going on the dyno.

  43. #43
    Registered Member Potent68's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Z06 View Post
    So it was the reluctor wheel.

    Put the engine back in the car. It fired up and ran like shit (because of all the computer changes they had done trying to fix the reluctor wheel though the tune before we knew obviously) but it was on all 8 cylinders and had no crank sensor codes so

    Had Matt come over last night and he roughed the tune in and got it to run correctly. Idle is back to normal, revs up fast like it should. Air fuels are so so but it hasn’t been driven or anything since it was fixed so we will be street tuning this week and then it will be going on the dyno.
    Glad to hear it's alive again!

  44. #44
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    So do you still think it was spun a couple degrees or just was not recognizing a couple cylinders at higher rpm?

    Hind sight being 20/20, you could have files a couple of thousands off the mounting area of the sensor to move it a little closer to see if that changed anything.

  45. #45
    Twerkin 4 dat BigMac Roger Z06's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1STLS1 View Post
    So do you still think it was spun a couple degrees or just was not recognizing a couple cylinders at higher rpm?

    Hind sight being 20/20, you could have files a couple of thousands off the mounting area of the sensor to move it a little closer to see if that changed anything.
    Getting the sensor closer wouldnít change the fact that it was rotated on the crankshaft. So the coil timing and the cam timing were not lining up.

    So much so that the computer started to shut down opposing cylinders.

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