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Thread: Source: The C8 Corvette Z06 is Getting a Flat-Plane-Crank Twin-Turbo V-8!

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    I like to do the breaking in person LV2XLR8's Avatar

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    Arrow Source: The C8 Corvette Z06 is Getting a Flat-Plane-Crank Twin-Turbo V-8!



    https://www.motortrend.com/news/c8-c...win-turbo-v-8/

    You've heard the rumors and you've seen the leaked CAD drawings. The car world has been speculating about overhead cams and turbochargers and flat-plane cranks in the backs of C8 Corvettes for months now, but we've confirmed with a deep source on the Corvette team that the upcoming C8.R race car and, more crucially, the C8 Corvette Z06 will be powered by a flat-plane-crank twin-turbo dual-overhead-cam V-8.

    "Everyone thinks it will be a small block, but it won't be," said our source. "Listen to the race car."

    We did, and if you've ever seen the current C7.R car live, you know the roar of the pushrod LS7.R engine is unmistakable. Compare the above video, which shows a camouflaged C8.R testing at Sebring, to the one below. The C8.R exhibits an entirely different exhaust note, one consistent with a flat-plane-crank engine design. Key characteristics to listen for: a higher-pitched exhaust note, a consistent exhaust note without the pushrod's staccato bass line, higher RPM than a pushrod motor typically reaches characterized by longer times between upshifts, and lightning quick downshifts wherein the engine spins up to higher RPM much faster than a pushrod engine.

    That last part helps explain why Chevrolet would do this. After all, Corvette Racing has won the 24 Hours of Le Mans eight times in 21 attempts with pushrod engines. As with the move to a mid-engine layout, the switch to a flat-plane crank is all about performance.

    Consider the advantages. Flat-plane-crank engines have smaller, lighter crankshafts which can spin up faster than cross-plane-crank engines and lose less power to rotational inertia. The change in firing order also allows for better exhaust scavenging than a cross-plane crank. Exhaust scavenging, the method of pulling the last exhaust gases out of a cylinder faster using reflected pressure waves, improves performance and combustion efficiency—both crucial in racing.

    Of course, flat-plane cranks have a big disadvantage in V-8 engines: balance. The whole reason Cadillac engineered the cross-plane crankshaft for V-8 engines back in the 1920s was to smooth out the engine. While cross-plane-crank V-8s are naturally balanced due to the order in which the pistons rise and fall in the block, flat-plane-crank V-8s have only half their vibrations cancelled out naturally, and the vibrations only get worse as engine speeds increase. Because the vibrations are caused by the movements of the pistons themselves, lightweight pistons and short strokes can help reduce (but not eliminate) the vibration of a flat-plane-crank engine. Aside from being annoying in the cockpit, vibrations can damage components or cause them to wear out more quickly.

    Chevrolet, clearly, has calculated the performance advantage of lightening the rotating assembly and improving scavenging are worth the expense of designing a new engine, which explains the flat-plane crank. Why not a flat-plane crank pushrod engine, though? While it's mechanically possible, there's no advantage. Exhaust scavenging works better the faster an engine spins, and getting high RPM out of an engine requires a robust valvetrain. Even the best pushrod engine, the mighty LS7, maxxes out at 7,000 RPM. At higher engine speeds, flex in the valvetrain hurts precision and stability, which hurt performance. Ford's 5.2-liter Voodoo flat-plane crank V-8 doesn't spin to 8,250 RPM because of the crank, it's because of the advanced dual-overhead cam valvetrain.

    That explains the flat-plane crankshaft and blasphemous dual-overhead cams, but just keeping up with Ford doesn't explain the turbos. Le Mans does. Le Mans' sanctioning body, the ACO, uses a formula called "Balance of Power" to attempt to level the playing field between different engine types and sizes, and for the past two years it's favored turbocharged engines from Ford and Ferrari to Corvette's detriment. Critically, Balance of Power can be adjusted simply by changing the maximum boost pressure of a turbocharged engine, whereas the naturally aspirated C7.R is forced to breathe through CNC-machined metal intake restrictors which have to be made from scratch.

    Where would Chevrolet get such an engine? Why, from Cadillac, of course. Not quite, though. Even though Cadillac's new 4.2-liter twin-turbo DOHC Blackwing V-8 is built at the Corvette's engine plant in Bowling Green, Kentucky, GM has been adamant it's exclusive to Cadillac. How exclusive? Cadillac President Steve Carlisle told us Corvette would get it "over my dead body" and even Corvette champion and GM President Mark Reuss has said the engine hasn't even been test-fit in the C8 because it's a Cadillac engine.

    Carlisle and Reuss may be splitting hairs, though. While the Z06 and C8.R's engine may not simply be a Blackwing with the wick turned up, it's likely to have a lot in common with Cadillac's engine but with enough different to make it a game of semantics. For starters, the Blackwing is a cross-plane-crank engine, so that would have to change. More critically, the Blackwing is a hot-vee design, a reverse-flow engine which puts its turbochargers in the valley between the heads rather than hanging off the sides of the engine. The leaked CAD drawings of a supposed twin-turbo DOHC C8 engine clearly show a traditional design with outboard turbos and the intake in the valley. At minimum, the Blackwing's crankshaft and heads would need to change, and that's a huge amount of work.

    It doesn't necessarily mean starting over from scratch, though. The Blackwing was designed, in Cadillac's words, to be a "compact, mass-efficient" design which emphasized power-density and packaging, both important in the C8's small engine compartment. To share development costs, it's possible the C8 motor could use the Blackwing's block, and much of what was learned in developing the Blackwing's heads could be reused in the reconfigured Corvette heads.

    There's one more change that would have to be made: bore. The Blackwing is an under-square engine—its stroke is longer than the diameter of its cylinder bores. Good for reliability and torque, bad for high-RPM performance. All modern flat-plane-crank V-8s, from Ford to Ferrari to McLaren, use over-square engines to reduce piston speed and quell those nasty flat-plane vibrations. Assuming Chevrolet doesn't change the stroke, the Blackwing would need to be bored out, increasing the displacement.

    Don't expect a 5.5-liter displacement, though. Many outlets have tossed this number around without any basis. It may have come from the C7.R's engine, which is restricted by IMSA racing rules to 5.5 liters, and the old rule states "there's no replacement for displacement." Except there is. It's called forced induction, that's where the turbos come in. More important than that, though, larger displacement (bigger bores and longer strokes) means bigger vibrations, which is why it was so shocking to see Ford launch a 5.2-liter flat-plane-crank V-8. There's a reason Ferrari's flat-plane-crank twin-turbo DOHC V-8 is 3.9 liters and McLaren's is 3.8. Expect the C8's displacement to grow from the Blackwing's 4.2 liters, but fall well short of the 5.5-liter number that's been thrown around. The number of issues Ford has had with Voodoo engine failures alone should dispel any notion of Chevrolet going to an even larger displacement.

    According to Chevrolet, the C8.R race car will be revealed sometime this fall. When it does, take a good look under the engine cover, because what you see there is what you'll be getting in the next Z06, and it won't have pushrods.
    Last edited by LV2XLR8; 08-26-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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    Suffering ends when craving ends... Hyperion's Avatar

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    Wow, can't wait to see performance numbers from this vehicle, it is going to be very fast.

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    DOHC WTF

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    Please go jeffrey Dr WeatherBoner's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    DOHC WTF
    Yea, that is a very odd engine feature.


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr WeatherBoner View Post
    Yea, that is a very odd engine feature.

    24 years since it was in a production Corvette?

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    24 years since it was in a production Corvette?
    Ok? The ZR1 of the 1990s was a world class sports car in its day performancewise.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    Ok? The ZR1 of the 1990s was a world class sports car in its day performancewise.
    I didn't say it's bad. Just that it's a surprise that they are doing it again. And fun acronyms

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    Starminator Wars 2: Judgement Force ScotWithOne_R/T's Avatar

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    Flat plane cranks sound like ass. Listen to the videos in the link. The C7R sounds so much better.
    Flat plane, turbo, DCT, mid engine Ferrari wannbe. No thnx Geoff.

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    Registered Member Cap'n Hook's Avatar

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    Vette+blow off valve=

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWithOne_R/T View Post
    Flat plane cranks sound like ass. Listen to the videos in the link. The C7R sounds so much better.
    Flat plane, turbo, DCT, mid engine Ferrari wannbe. No thnx Geoff.
    Yeah, Ferrari is a car nobody wants!


    Shut up Scotwithlow_T

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    I like to do the breaking in person LV2XLR8's Avatar

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    Registered Member Davy_Baby9's Avatar

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    I think those videos are old, yeah it was posted in December.

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    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    Honestly if the base models transmission is rated for the same torque I see a lot of folks successfully going FI with the base pushrod V8.

    It's already really good, reliable, smooth, sounds good, etc

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    underdog 4 lyfe ill deuce's Avatar

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    cool, so it's sound like crap too.

    christ, get an identity chevy...

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    Registered Member Gearhead SS's Avatar

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    Some of y'all gripe about the dumbest shit. Good lord.

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    Registered Member STANG KILLA SS's Avatar

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    cant wait for the first person to LS swap a Z

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    underdog 4 lyfe ill deuce's Avatar

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    that it has equal length manifolds so it sounds like ecotecs running together

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    No ragrets Tristan's Avatar

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    Please go jeffrey Dr WeatherBoner's Avatar

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    Yes hello I would like to recommend, for the C8 Z06, a 355 small block with a mild cam, roller lifters and double humper heads. Please design a duel eggsaust that sounds as good as the pack of Marlboros looks tucked into my sleeve too. Gotta stay true to your roots GM!!!111
    Last edited by Dr WeatherBoner; 08-28-2019 at 12:57 AM.

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    Whataburger > * Dr Griswold's Avatar

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    no fox with dumped flows no care

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    underdog 4 lyfe ill deuce's Avatar

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    muh vet looks liek muh bedroom lambo postur when i was 10 and sound like a miclarin which don't sound lyke shit at all.


    i don't wanna hear any viper UPS truck jokes ever again.

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ill deuce View Post
    muh vet looks liek muh bedroom lambo postur when i was 10 and sound like a miclarin which don't sound lyke shit at all.


    i don't wanna hear any viper UPS truck jokes ever again.
    shut up

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    Registered Member triggerjerk's Avatar

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    I am going to assume that the Z06 motor will have a hot vee like the Blackwing (and BMW M and AMG).
    I wonder what long term reliability is on a hot vee motor

    Also, go diaf Cadillac. Hoarding the blackwing into Vsports (250?) and the CT6-Vs is not going to add brand cache or make people start
    buying up XT4s and CT4/5s

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    DANSBIRD's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ill deuce View Post
    muh vet looks liek muh bedroom lambo postur when i was 10 and sound like a miclarin which don't sound lyke shit at all.


    i don't wanna hear any viper UPS truck jokes ever again.
    Well you can want in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first.

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    Registered Member shuck's Avatar

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    That thing sound bad ass, I can't wait to see how fast it is and how well it does in competition once they get it dialed in to the series it will be in. GM is killing it with this thing.

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    Registered Member speed_demon24's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV2XLR8 View Post
    The c5.r, c6.r, c7.r, ect sound nothing like the production cars. I’ll wait till they hit the streets.

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    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by STANG KILLA SS View Post
    cant wait for the first person to LS swap a Z
    Swap that drivetrain into a 1967 shortbed C10.

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    Senior Member Sax1031's Avatar

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    hopefully it shits all over the Ford GT(40) and forces Ford to up their game.

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    Registered Member speed_demon24's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sax1031 View Post


    hopefully it shits all over the Ford GT(40) and forces Ford to up their game.
    Ford's pulling support from ALMS next year. They don't care.

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    Registered Member Gearhead SS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by speed_demon24 View Post
    Ford's pulling support from ALMS next year. They don't care.
    They're ending full factory involvement but they will still have a supporting role for teams that want to run the GT.

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by speed_demon24 View Post
    Ford's pulling support from ALMS next year. They don't care.
    I heard them mention that during the VIR race. Oh Ganassi mad.

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    Registered Member Cap'n Hook's Avatar

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    Lol, what if they pull a Silverado half-Ton move? In-line 4 turbo Kinda sounds like one

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    Starminator Wars 2: Judgement Force ScotWithOne_R/T's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    Yeah, Ferrari is a car nobody wants!


    Shut up Scotwithlow_T
    That thing sounds fuckall like a Ferarri.

    Hence why I said it's a Ferarri wannabe.
    Last edited by ScotWithOne_R/T; 08-30-2019 at 09:07 AM.

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    Registered Member runningmole's Avatar

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    Possible 100hp gain from tune, larger/more efficient intercooler, down pipe(s), injectors & maybe a fuel pump?

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    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotWithOne_R/T View Post
    That thing sounds fuckall like a Ferarri.

    Hence why I said it's a Ferarri wannabe.
    It's an effin Ferrari killer if it packs the power this article is claiming. Yeah no one is going to "oooo" and "ahhhh" over a Corvette as much as a Ferrari, but the guys on the track might be drinking pepto after staring at the tail lights of the car that cost 1/3 or less than theirs.

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Can’t wait for people to start whining that the corvette interior isn’t as nice as the 488’s interior.





    Oh wait...

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    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    This is the first corvette that I genuinely like the interior.

    The blue exterior and white interior combo looks fantastic.

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    Registered Member Gearhead SS's Avatar

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    This is the base interior on the C8. This is pretty damn nice for a base car.









  39. #39
    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    The only thing I hate, and I mean really hate is the paddle shifts connected to the wheel. They should be column mounted in my opinion.

    When you are in a turn and need to shift a gear but you dont remember how far around you spun the wheel. Are we shifting with our left hand or right hand? Its gonna go right or completely wrong!

    I have wheel mounted paddles now. Worst idea ever.

    They should be column mounted and right hwere you left them.

  40. #40
    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    The only thing I hate, and I mean really hate is the paddle shifts connected to the wheel. They should be column mounted in my opinion.

    When you are in a turn and need to shift a gear but you dont remember how far around you spun the wheel. Are we shifting with our left hand or right hand? Its gonna go right or completely wrong!

    I have wheel mounted paddles now. Worst idea ever.

    They should be column mounted and right where you left them.

  41. #41
    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Following style front’s advice


    Worst idea ever.

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    Registered Member Gearhead SS's Avatar

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    The problem with column mounted is that they have to be extremely long so you can still reach them while in a turn. I would think that steering wheel mounted would be better for the track. I never use them though so I wouldn't really know from experience.

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    Please go jeffrey Dr WeatherBoner's Avatar

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    Most race cars have them mounted to the wheel, but most race cars also have faster steering gearing and you aren't turning the wheel nearly as much...IMO

  44. #44
    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr WeatherBoner View Post
    Most race cars have them mounted to the wheel, but most race cars also have faster steering gearing and you aren't turning the wheel nearly as much...IMO
    This. An f1 car driver doesnt ever need to move their hands from the 3 and 9 o clock position. In comparison regular road cars have our hands walking all over the wheel to perform turns.

    Imagine your turn indicator being attached to your wheel and having to reach down to the 6 o clock or up to the 12 o clock position to activate it. Not ideal.

    I dont know what ratio the c8 will use to get from lock to lock so who knows at this point if it's going to be annoying or not. Audi, VW and Mercedes all use wheel mounted gear selectors and its annoyed me with every car I've owned over the last 7 years. The DSG in Audi/VW is a pretty good transmission to use in manual but most of the ratios are to broad making it a weird memory game of whether your transmission controls will be normal (left hand down shift/right hand upshift) or will the controls be reversed.

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    Registered Member Gearhead SS's Avatar

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    Let's face it. Most folks will never use the paddle shifters anyway. I don't think they're worried about the 5% of people that think this is a big deal.

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Style_Front View Post
    This. An f1 car driver doesnt ever need to move their hands from the 3 and 9 o clock position. In comparison regular road cars have our hands walking all over the wheel to perform turns.

    Imagine your turn indicator being attached to your wheel and having to reach down to the 6 o clock or up to the 12 o clock position to activate it. Not ideal.

    I dont know what ratio the c8 will use to get from lock to lock so who knows at this point if it's going to be annoying or not. Audi, VW and Mercedes all use wheel mounted gear selectors and its annoyed me with every car I've owned over the last 7 years. The DSG in Audi/VW is a pretty good transmission to use in manual but most of the ratios are to broad making it a weird memory game of whether your transmission controls will be normal (left hand down shift/right hand upshift) or will the controls be reversed.
    So all of the auto manufacturers that do it this way (most of them) have it wrong, and you've got it right? Am I understanding correctly?

    Seriously man, everything you're saying would be a problem with wheel mounted controls, I could say you'd have similar or maybe even more annoying problems with column mounted controls. They're doing it the right way, and if you're on a track going that hard, it's just another thing you adapt to and learn to do right. I'll take them on the wheel.

  47. #47
    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    Yes, most auto manufacturers use wheel mounted paddles because it's simple to incorporate the paddles without rearranging the column.

    In the context of let's say Nissan GTR, Lamborghini and Audi R8, they use wheels paddles.

    However buggati, Ferrari, koenigsegg and McClaren use column mounted paddles.

    To say one is wrong or right isn't really what we discussing tho. All I'm saying is I like column mounted paddles for the reasons I have stated.

    I'm looking for the requirement for you or anyone else to agree with me, I cant seem to find it.

  48. #48
    Registered Member Style_Front's Avatar

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    Correction Lamborghini now uses column mounted paddles in the huracan

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    What gear shifts are done with the wheel turned more than 180*? I'm not a road course or even auto trans guy, but I thought you slow down and shift before turning?
    Last edited by Romulus; 09-03-2019 at 07:04 AM.

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    It'll get ya fat KrispyCharger's Avatar

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    most racing videos I've seen encourage 9-3 hand holds and not moving your hands while racing; in that scenario you never will need to worry with steering wheel mounted, your hands will always consistently be on the same lever

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    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romulus View Post
    What gear shifts are done with the wheel turned more than 180*? I'm not a road course or even auto trans guy, but I thought you slow down and shift before turning?
    I am a Mustang owner so I can address any questions concerning high rpms and when to shift while turning.

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    Bugzapper gonna zap 5.0THIS's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Style_Front View Post
    Yes, most auto manufacturers use wheel mounted paddles because it's simple to incorporate the paddles without rearranging the column.

    In the context of let's say Nissan GTR, Lamborghini and Audi R8, they use wheels paddles.

    However buggati, Ferrari, koenigsegg and McClaren use column mounted paddles.

    To say one is wrong or right isn't really what we discussing tho. All I'm saying is I like column mounted paddles for the reasons I have stated.

    I'm looking for the requirement for you or anyone else to agree with me, I cant seem to find it.
    Fair enough, I just think we see things a bit differently is all.

  53. #53
    Whataburger > * Dr Griswold's Avatar

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    the pinnacle of timelessness was achieved with the introduction of the 1997 corvette

    nothing else is relevant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romulus View Post
    What gear shifts are done with the wheel turned more than 180*? I'm not a road course or even auto trans guy, but I thought you slow down and shift before turning?
    This was my thought as well. In real world daily life, the column mounted paddles make more sense, but some manufacturers figure most people will probably have the car doing automatic shifts in this situation.

    In a competitive situation where the driver is more likely to manually shift the car, the wheel mounted paddles are probably more functional since the paddles will be where that hands are most of the time. Can probably set them a bit closer to the wheel as well since you don't have to account for a hand passing between the paddle and the steering wheel. In a race car, have the added benefit that the paddles go with the wheel when disconnected, leaving one less thing to hinder driver exit.

  55. #55
    Team Hobbit windham's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Griswold View Post
    the pinnacle of timelessness was achieved with the introduction of the 1997 corvette

    nothing else is relevant
    1984 Corvette with Crossfire Injection you son of a

  56. #56
    Paddle shifters in non track cars are just novelty anyway. Come at me bro

  57. #57
    Registered Member NHRATA01's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    Paddle shifters in non track cars are just novelty anyway. Come at me bro
    Peasants model of the SS doesn't have them?

  58. #58
    Starminator Wars 2: Judgement Force ScotWithOne_R/T's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    Paddle shifters in non track cars are just novelty anyway. Come at me bro
    Agreed. My charger has them and I think I've used them about 4 times

  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by NHRATA01 View Post
    Peasants model of the SS doesn't have them?
    Fuck if I know. Mine is manual

  60. #60
    DANSBIRD's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    fuck if i know. Mine is manual
    BOOM! IN YOUR FACE, NHRATA01!
    Last edited by DANSBIRD; 09-09-2019 at 10:20 PM.

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