Editorial: Is the Next Generation Camaro/Firebird Closer Than We Think?

[Constrictor]

February 23, 2004 - Is the Next Generation Camaro/Firebird Closer Than We Think?

I know theres been a ton of speculation in the last few years over the potential future of our beloved automobiles, and rumors have been flying since before the F-body demise was officially announced, but I think this years auto show has been the first hard core evidence that a car that could be named the 5th Generation Camaro or Firebird might be on the horizon.

I have one word for you....Kappa

As it stands now, the Kappa platform will first see the light of day in the Pontiac Solstice. Now, you might think....okay, its sporty, it has 2 doors, but come on, Mike, its a 2 seater roadster powered by a 4 banger!!

Hang with me here.

The Solstice is old news, but what isnt old news is that GM is seriously backing the Kappa platform, and will be using it with more than just the Pontiac Solstice in the next 4-5 years. Lets take a look at the 3 vehicles we've seen using this platform. Starting at the top, going clockwise, the Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Curve, and Chevy Nomad.

http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Saturn/2004-Curve-Concept-10.jpg

Now before I go any further, you have to understand that looking at concept cars is all about reading between the lines. Most concept cars are too radical to be put into production in their "concept" iterations. With a large car company such as GM, many times, a vehicle intended for use by Buick, might show up as a luxury Opel concept, or a new sports car by Pontiac might show up as a Cadillac concept. Many times new platforms or drivetrains make their debuts inconspicuously in totally bizarre concepts.

I realize I probably still have you all scratching your heads, well, lets take a look at another picture, and some statistics.

http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Saturn/2004-Curve-Concept-6.jpg

The above picture is the Saturn Curve. Everyone take a minute and analyze the two pictures I posted, and tell me what you see...

I see a flexible RWD platform that can be used as a 2 seater convertible, a 2 door sports coupe and a versitile family hauler/station wagon crossover. Hmm, that means the platform is practical and flexible, two VERY important things a platform needs to be on its way to production.

More importantly, what else do I see? I see a long hood, short deck. Hmm, doesnt that sound to you like the general shape of a Camaro?

Now lets look at some specs.

Saturn Curve:
Length - 156.5 in
Width - 76.8 in
Height - 49.1 in
Wheelbase - 107 in

1968 Camaro Z28:
Length - 184.7 in
Width - 72.5 in
Height - 51.4 in
Wheelbase - 108 in

Okay, now, I realize the length of the two cars are quite a bit different, but with modern cars, the days of the huge overhangs are over. Wheels are being pushed to the furthest corners of a vehicle than ever before. The thing I want you to look at are the wheelbases.

Try to close your eyes and picture a 5th Gen Camaro body with the same basic shape as that Saturn Curve with similar dimensions and layout.

The Kappa platform is already RWD with a longitudinally mounted engine, and if the evidence I've shown you isnt enough, check out Page 21 of the February 2, 2004 issue of AutoWeek.

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=&content_code=07450316

GM is already making it clear that the highly adaptable Kappa will spawn a string of sporty models, on a chassis that can be shortened, lengthened, widened or raised, and built as a convertible or with a fixed roof, depending on the need.

We already know the Kappa platform already exists, is flexible, relatively inexpensive to adapt to new models, can be lengthened, widened, or made taller to adapt to its needs. It can even handle a flexible combination of powerplants and transmissions.

Where does this all fit in? Pontiac will be putting the Solstice into production, that is a fact, which does not bode well for a new Firebird, but what has Chevy shown us? The Nomad is clearly too concepty to be around the corner. If there was a Camaro project underway, I am pretty sure GM would want to keep it under wraps as long as humanly possible. You gotta give em credit, they kept the C6 under wraps pretty good, and spy pics didnt begin to leak out until a couple months before it was officially released.

I dont see the Nomad making it to production, which leaves Chevrolet, GMs largest brand without a Kappa vehicle or a 2 door sporty RWD vehicle. Hello...can anyone say Camaro?

If this is to be the next Generation Camaro, my guess is 2007 (40 years after the original Camaro) would be a good target year to be released. If that is true, then more than likely it would get released midyear 2006, which really means January 2006. For a vehicle to hit that production date, it would be on car show circuits in early 2005, a year from now. If it hits the carshow circuits then, that would mean we should be hearing more rumors and seeing some spy cars by late summer/fall of this year.

Even if Chevy decides to use the Kappa platform for something similar to the Nomad, that still doesnt hurt our chances nearly as much as the Solstice does for a Firebird. We all know that Chevrolet has no problems using the same platform for two vehicles. Look at the Impala/Monte Carlo vehicles. I could potentially see GM coming out with a family/crossover vehicle using the Kappa platform alongside a Camaro 2 door sportcoupe vehicle.

The reason there hasn't been any talk of a next generation Camaro/Firebird until now, is that GM would never have developed an entire platform for that vehicle. It needed to wait for a time when something flexible would come along that they could resurrect the brand by using existing parts, thus cutting costs dramatically.

Whatever happens, this is all speculation, but in my opnion, the puzzle pieces are all there, its just getting it all put together.

[killer01ws6]

Nice write up, and research Constrictor. I have been a Bird man for many years. but if I had to chose between nothing and a new Camaro, I could go back to a camaro again. :)
My wife wants one of those new dodge Magnums that looks like a old nomad, she says she likes it because it looks like a chopped nomad from the old days. She will be happy if this version makes it to the street.:cool:

[Xerxes]

Good info! :thumbup:

[03ToRcHrEdVeTtE]

thanks man, thats a great write up :)

[TPX18]

Originally posted by killer01ws6
Nice write up, and research Constrictor.

:werd: Constrictor is the man. I hope you're right

Originally posted by killer01ws6
I have been a Bird man for many years. but if I had to chose between nothing and a new Camaro, I could go back to a camaro again. :)
And yet another :werd:

[wannafbody]

That Saturn is just plain ugly- the Nomad is cool but the 57 corvette grill probably won't make the cut- its interesting that the nomad can be made on the same platform lengthwise-that leaves a lot of possibilities- GTO,Chevelle, Camaro- Gm is gonna have to counter the 05 Stang sometime or else just look like losers

[Dwarf Killer]

Well, we all know that a certain GM rep was online on another website saying that something big was in the works but he wouldn't elaborate.

I saw the Solstice and it was nice, but a flagship car? Hmmm. The rumor to date has been a new plant that will build a GTO among other cars on a changeable platform that would accommodate other cars. I'm not sure I see that kind of flexibilty in the Kappa platform. GM will only import the GTO until the end of 2006 when a new car is supposed to be ready.

I'm certain, Camaro or otherwise there will be a new 2+2 sports coupe out for Chevy. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.:)

[O1PewterWS6]

Wow another great write up, I learned a lot from that!!!

[JCS30TH]

Doesn't take in consideration the ass clowns running GM


The Camaro and Firebird are dead. Let them RIP.

[ChrisL]

The future started here with the Opel Insignia. This is the platform that holds the key to the future. It was the first concept built on GMs new RWD "global" platform.

the new Opel is roughly the same length as the new Pontiac GTO. That's no coincidence, as the Insignia is based on a new rear-wheel-drive platform developed by Holden, GM's increasingly active Australian subsidiary, for its next-generation Commodore. (The brawny Pontiac coupe sits on the latest Holden Commodore platform.) Powering the Insignia is Chevrolet's tried-andtested 5.7-litre V8

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/frankfurt/highlights/images/iaa9858.jpg

[ZeusJr]

Nice comments man... :D

But I'd rather GM leave the TA RIP forever!!!!!

[TheSilverSurfer]

We can only hope:cool:

[killer01ws6]

Originally posted by ChrisL
The future started here with the Opel Insignia. This is the platform that holds the key to the future. It was the first concept built on GMs new RWD "global" platform.

the new Opel is roughly the same length as the new Pontiac GTO. That's no coincidence, as the Insignia is based on a new rear-wheel-drive platform developed by Holden, GM's increasingly active Australian subsidiary, for its next-generation Commodore. (The brawny Pontiac coupe sits on the latest Holden Commodore platform.) Powering the Insignia is Chevrolet's tried-andtested 5.7-litre V8

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/frankfurt/highlights/images/iaa9858.jpg

That looks a lot like the Dodge Crossfire. Both are nice looking cars. Just not what I am looking for. :)

[Constrictor]

There is the Sigma RWD platform, that could also be used for a 5th Gen Camaro, but I personally think that the Kappa would suit GMs needs a little better. If and when a new Camaro comes out, GM will no doubt try to stick to the original philosophy of the 1st gens, which means wheelbase, width, and height will probably be close. For a badge that historically hasnt sold well, GM is going to spend as little money as possible on their "niche" sports coupes, and I think the Kappa platform more efficiently accomplishes that.

The Delta platform is currently being used for the Cadillac CTS platform, and will be used in a couple years in the reintroduced RWD Monte Carlo and Impala.

The Delta is a larger and more complicated platform more suited for larger, more luxurious cars. I think the Delta platform would put the car too far out of its necessary ~$25k price range that a 5th gen would need to be in.

[ChrisL]

Originally posted by killer01ws6
That looks a lot like the Dodge Crossfire. Both are nice looking cars. Just not what I am looking for. :)

dont worry about the panels bolted onto the frame. Its the frame thats important.

Sigma was considered, but the bean counters considered it too pricey.

[ws6dude]

I just hope they don't screw it up like they did the GTO:rolleyes:

[cm_ls1]

like chrisL said the new platform in development dubbed 'ZETA' will definately underpin any future f-bodies, the kappa is nice but was designed to accomodate small engines.

the design (sheet metal) of that concept opel insignia will have no similarity to what an f-car might look like, also this chassis will be made in 3 different wheel bases.

the facts are here, the zeta is an all new platform from the ground up, picture taking CTS-v chassis, and actually improving on its design :eek: , whilst lowering its costs by substituting its expensive alloy components with steel ones.

[Constrictor]

Originally posted by cm_ls1
like chrisL said the new platform in development dubbed 'ZETA' will definately underpin any future f-bodies, the kappa is nice but was designed to accomodate small engines.

the design (sheet metal) of that concept opel insignia will have no similarity to what an f-car might look like, also this chassis will be made in 3 different wheel bases.

the facts are here, the zeta is an all new platform from the ground up, picture taking CTS-v chassis, and actually improving on its design :eek: , whilst lowering its costs by substituting its expensive alloy components with steel ones.

At the least, the Kappa platform is just more proof of GM rededicating themselves to RWD and sporty cars...instead of SUV, SUTs, and Crossover vehicles.

[ChrisL]

one last thing.... there wont be another fcar. if anything, they'll be zcars. :D

my guess is no firebird. its been widely rumored GM will redo the GTO in the future.

If the pieces fall into place, then we could see a GTO and a bowtie offering on the zeta platform.

[ws6dude]

a bunch of good info in this thread

[Constrictor]

Originally posted by ChrisL
one last thing.... there wont be another fcar. if anything, they'll be zcars. :D

my guess is no firebird. its been widely rumored GM will redo the GTO in the future.

If the pieces fall into place, then we could see a GTO and a bowtie offering on the zeta platform.

No one has the answers, and your opinions are as welcome as anyone else here, so keep that in mind, but if I had to guess.

I would guess that the Zeta platform will be used for the next generation GTO, and RWD Monte Carlo, and a smaller RWD platform will be used for the Camaro. This is why I made the pitch about it being on the Kappa platform.

Like I said, I dont have any insider info, but it would make sense for a new Camaro to be smaller than a GTO/Monte Carlo...as it historically always has been smaller.

[killer01ws6]

Originally posted by Constrictor
No one has the answers, and your opinions are as welcome as anyone else here, so keep that in mind, but if I had to guess.

I would guess that the Zeta platform will be used for the next generation GTO, and RWD Monte Carlo, and a smaller RWD platform will be used for the Camaro. This is why I made the pitch about it being on the Kappa platform.

Like I said, I dont have any insider info, but it would make sense for a new Camaro to be smaller than a GTO/Monte Carlo...as it historically always has been smaller.

I buy that. :yup:

[InfantryWS6]

Zeta
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=228843

[skytower31]

::sitting on floor cross-legged with hands under chin looking up and listening to Professor Constrictor:: :cool:

[blue02formula]

About the time they stopped production of the F-car, one of our CSE's to the plant said GM wasn't bringing back the Camaro but the Firebird might be back and built in Bowling Green, KY. since it would have shared parts with a car being built there already.;)

[killer01ws6]

Originally posted by blue02formula
About the time they stopped production of the F-car, one of our CSE's to the plant said GM wasn't bringing back the Camaro but the Firebird might be back and built in Bowling Green, KY. since it would have shared parts with a car being built there already.;)

You STOP getting our hopes up.... :D


:jk:

That would be way to cool, if it was done Right!

[Constrictor]

Originally posted by blue02formula
About the time they stopped production of the F-car, one of our CSE's to the plant said GM wasn't bringing back the Camaro but the Firebird might be back and built in Bowling Green, KY. since it would have shared parts with a car being built there already.;)

That was actually a rumor about 5 years ago that a next generation Firebird would get built alongside the Vette, but that has since been proved to be false since that new vehicle is going to be the Caddilac XLR roadster.

I can assure you, if there ever is going to be another Firebird, it will not share the same platform as the Vette.

You guys will all be pleased to know that last night, I just acquired very conclusive evidence that what ChrisL was saying is true. The Camaro will be back in 07 as a RWD V8 powered Zeta based vehicle.

So it looks like my Kappa prediction was wrong, but I was right in that it is closer than we thought!! I look forward to seeing some auto show concepts next year.

[skytower31]

:faint: Looks like my bird may be getting a friend in the garage!!!

[killer01ws6]

Nice Find Contrictor, ChrisL.

Oh and :faint: is right.

[Chief Pontiac]

If they bring back the Camaro which I doubt,they should bring back the Firebird too.

[EMINENT 1]

LIES! ALL LIES!!!!!!

[Chief Pontiac]

Ya but it would be nice if they did.:)

[RedPhoenix1998]

I've heard so many rumors about this now that it's sickening. Is it coming back or is it dead, someone in corporate please put the f-body out of it's misery or ressurect it for good. I hope they ressurect it, but this suspense is killing me!

[cm_ls1]

buick is the first in line to get the new zeta chassis , and you can get a glimpse of it in April at the New York auto show.

of course the sheet metal and possibly wheelbase are totally diferent to what a camaro might look like , but for a buick in looks not bad (and powered by a ls1/ls2? V8) , maybe trying to take on lexus ?

sneek peek-
http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/velite.jpg

[ChrisL]

Ran across a thread on cz28.com where a few members were complaining they want official word or a hint at a new Camaro, otherwise they might consider buying an 05 Mustang. This is Red Planet's response. *Red Planet is Scott Settlemire*

(banging head against wall..............)

OK........

I'm gonna say it again......I will NOT read between the lines for you........

First......we don't want to lose ANY customer...that said, we won't be held hostage....nor will any other manufacturer.

I would not say we said "F. U." to anyone...if you really feel that way, I can't change your mind, but I'd also say that you probably don't have a full understanding of this industry.

Now........

Mr. Lutz announced in, I believe, it was Frankfurt that we are developing a Global RWD platform........that can be adapted to many different models/needs.

........and a while back, someone (who shall go unnamed) mentioned that he was at a GM clinic and saw some really interesting cars and trucks......one particular car was VERY interesting to him........

So.......I can't stop you from bashing GM........

I also can't stop you from buying a vehicle from another manufacturer.......regardless of how much you bash........

So................once again, I'm gonna say it......and then I'm gonna "shut my pie hole" (good one, Mr. Harden...I still laugh at that one!)

Have faith.



Food for thought........

GM has managed to plug the pension fund shortfall....which was about 22 Billion (yes....spelled with a B, not an M) in the past year........connect the dots, please............

Here is the thread if anyone wants to go through it
GM Reps lurking this board... read and beware (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=229306)

[Constrictor]

Trust me, the Camaro is coming back. There are no plans at this point for another Firebird.

The F-body is dead. As everyone keeps saying, when (not if) the Camaro comes back, it will be on an all new platform, no longer called the F-body.

You have to realize that someone as high profile as Scott Settlemeire cant outright say whats happening, he'd lose his job.

I have nothing to lose by saying this, but it is coming back. We should start seeing early production sketches/rumors by next years auto show. We'll see a working concept vehicle by the 2006 Auto Show, and the car will be in dealers by the 2007 model year.

[skytower31]

Not that I don't trust the Professor, but is there anyway you can tell us some info on how you know this...you are very confident about the info and I have no reason to doubt you, but I am just curious how you got this final info?...and I am itchin' for some pics of this bad boy...

GM, please don't f--- this up!!! If you don't mess it up, I'll buy on...I'll give you money! Many people will give you money!!!:cool:

[ChrisL]

Originally posted by skytower31
Not that I don't trust the Professor, but is there anyway you can tell us some info on how you know this...you are very confident about the info and I have no reason to doubt you, but I am just curious how you got this final info?...and I am itchin' for some pics of this bad boy...

GM, please don't f--- this up!!! If you don't mess it up, I'll buy on...I'll give you money! Many people will give you money!!!:cool:

well, read the post I provided by Red Planet. Take the info pieced together by Constrictor, and the additions made by cm_ls1 and me.

It's not that hard to figure out.

Like Constrictor said, no one at GM is going to go on the record with any of this. It could cost them their job.

About 7 GM Drivetrain employees were fired not too long ago for leaking info about the ls2. GM takes that stuff very seriously.

[MapleRed]

Looking forward to seeing the RWD Buick coupe. Its nice to see RWD cars making a return to Buicks lineup.

I've been hearing lately that the Zeta based Camaro might have been put off a year or two. Instead of 07, it might be more like 2008/2009. :(

[Constrictor]

Originally posted by MapleRed
I've been hearing lately that the Zeta based Camaro might have been put off a year or two. Instead of 07, it might be more like 2008/2009. :(

I hope not. GM would really miss a big opportunity if they dont get it out in 2007...since that would be the 40th Anniversary of the original Camaro.

[MapleRed]

Originally posted by Constrictor
I hope not. GM would really miss a big opportunity if they dont get it out in 2007...since that would be the 40th Anniversary of the original Camaro.

I agree. I really want to wait until 07 model year and buy a new Camaro but its tough to wait any longer. It would be ashame to just give ford that market for over 3 model years after the new stang debuts.

[97RamSS/T]

Well I just hope its worthy of the name plate. There is a lot more to a "Camaro" than just the name....there is history there, and if the new car doesn't honor and share that history then it won't be a real Camaro.

[Chief Pontiac]

I have a friend who works for GM at the Tech Center and he said they are not coming back.:(

[Dwarf Killer]

It depends on how much money GM has to throw around. Right now they have to support their bread and butter. That means rebuilding the Buick lineup first because mid-market is where the buyers are.

From what I hear there has really been a big fight going on at GM over the Camaro between those who see it as necessary and those who are indifferent. Lost in all this is the fact that Pontiac really has no flagship sportscar. The Solstice is a useless car with only 2 seats. The "new" 2007 GTO will likely be a Grand Prix with a V8, so that leaves us Firebird types who like a truly aggressive car left out.

2008-09 is one heck of a long time to wait for a car. With the new Hemi-Charger coming out the temptation will be strong to abandon GM.

[wannafbody]

honestly i think it depends on Stang sales- if they are very high GM might counter with a Camaro- if they are lackluster they will probably come out with something along the lines of the Chevelle or Monte Carlo

[Chief Pontiac]

I agree with Dwarf Killer but I guess we will see if anybody has the balls to bring the F bodys back.

[MapleRed]

Originally posted by Dwarf Killer


From what I hear there has really been a big fight going on at GM over the Camaro between those who see it as necessary and those who are indifferent. Lost in all this is the fact that Pontiac really has no flagship sportscar. The Solstice is a useless car with only 2 seats. The "new" 2007 GTO will likely be a Grand Prix with a V8, so that leaves us Firebird types who like a truly aggressive car left out.



There is definitely a RWD Chevy coupe in development as we speak. You won't hear a name for this vehicle for a while because of the gag order at GM involving the Camaro name. Basically GM can't produce a car named Camaro because of their deal with the CAW. My understanding is that deal expires in 2005. You'll probably start hearing more about the upcoming Chevy coupe in 05 or 06.

One more note: If you look on some of the auto news sites, you will see articles on GM's new RWD platform that a Chevy coupe will be built on. That is fact. You won't hear any confirmation on the name of said coupe for a while yet.

[skytower31]

http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/6C6BE3DFEDD44726CA256E44002ABAE2/$file/GoAuto_enews226.pdf

Note the Zeta Rollout Schedule and 2008/2009!

[wannafbody]

if it takes till 08/09 for Gm to produce a rear wheel drive chevy coupe then they've got some serious problems:help:

[skytower31]

At least it is on the radar though...I agree it could come sooner, but at least it is coming. Also, some of the info about Buick was kinda interesting.

[MapleRed]

Originally posted by wannafbody
if it takes till 08/09 for Gm to produce a rear wheel drive chevy coupe then they've got some serious problems:help:

Especially since they've bragging about how they can bring new cars to production alot quicker, now. I think they've been saying they can do it in 18 - 24 months. It seems like they've got some great stuff in the pipeline but they're taking their time in getting it out. Why do they have to be late to the party?