Got to poke and prod a GTO

[code41ta]

I found myself with some time to kill yesterday since I had to leave work early for a meeting. The meeting took less time than I thought it would. I made my way over to my side of town well before the evening rush hour.

So I found myself drawn to the Pontiac dealer when I saw two Grand Prix coupes oops... GTOs parked out front. A black one and a red one.

A sales guy saw me roll up in the Trans Am and started talking to me. Surprisingly he was able to admit I probably knew more about the car than he did. We talked and I found out he’s ex-Marines (Gulf War I vet) and holds a EE degree in engineering. He used to work in engineering technical support until he got laid off last year. Now he’s selling cars.

Anyway to get back to the topic on hand he let me poke and prod a red GTO with black leather interior sitting inside the showroom floor. The car is equipped with a six speed and is selling for sticker price.

Outside:

The Good: Well I guess it looks like a Grand Prix coupe. Shares similar look to all the other Pontiac stuff. Very good fit and finish. All panels line up, no obvious flaws in the paint. Gas inlet location looks very sporty. The 5.7 designation badge is a nice touch. The doors close with a real solid feel and sound. The wheels are stylish for factory OEM. The standard tire has gone up in size to P245/50R17. Standard tire on the car is the BF Goodrich T/A KDWS tire.

The Bad: Well the car makes me go blah when I look at it. For $33k a car should at least make me go hmmm nice like the Infinity G35 coupe does. The car has a true duel exhaust underneath but the exhaust exits on one side with dual outlets. A car like this should have exhaust exits on both sides with at least one outlet per side like the Infinity G35 coupe.

Inside:

The Good: Wow the interior is light years ahead of any GM offering in recent history. The quality of the plastics and leather are more European in look and feel than GM. The steering wheel spokes are trimmed in brushed aluminum. The foot pedals have a brushed metal look to them. The inside door release handles are made out of brushed metal. The HVAC controls use rotary bezel type knobs. Very European or Japanese looking depending upon your point of view. The car is equipped with a trip computer with the display housed in the gauge pod. The onboard sound system is a Blaupunkt 6 disc changer in dash unit. The shifter knob is accented in metal with the shift pattern etched into the metal trim. The glove box opens and shuts with a solid feel to it. The storage bay in the center console is illuminated. Front seat belts have height adjustable hinges. Front and back seats have substantial sized head rests. Both front seats have at least 8 points of powered articulation. I’m not sure if the seats have either manual lumbar or side bolster support adjustment. There is a knob on the side of the seatback. The steering wheel features radio controls just like a Trans Am. The car is equipped with a remote fuel door release inside the car. Seating position is very comfortable and the car has decent outward visibility. The driver’s seat is almost night and day in supportive comfort compared to say a Trans Am driver’s seat. The engine bay is far cleaner looking with the GTO fuel rail covers compared to the Trans Am. The steering pump fluid reservoir is clear plastic which makes level checks much easier. Coolant overflow (yes car is filled with Dex Cool), brake fluid and clutch fluid is also housed in clear plastic containers. The entire engine resides in the engine bay in front of the firewall. The LS1 accent on the MAF is a nice touch. The engine is rated at 350HP and 365 TQ according to the brochure. The rear axle ratio is 3.46:1 according to the brochure.

The Bad: The inside of the car does not have a remote trunk release. The only way to remotely open the trunk is either with the key FOB or a rip cord hidden under the passenger side headrest in the back seat area. The trunk is half the size it should be due to the relocated gas tank. The hood release is buried way to far forward under the dash board on the driver’s side foot well. The gauge cluster is only equipped with a speedometer, tachometer, gas and coolant temp. There is no oil pressure or volts gauge. The car is equipped with only one power outlet. It is inside the center console storage compartment. Not a big deal unless you don’t desire to hard wire your radar detector into this car. The standard stick shift mechanism has longer throws than the Hurst optional unit in the Trans Am. The key FOB has been combined with the car key itself. No big deal if you carry your keys in a purse. Another story if you carry your keys in your pocket. The washer fluid reservoir is obscured from direct view by a cover panel of some sort. Only the filler neck is exposed.

The Verdict:
I would MAYBE buy the car. The car’s bland outward appearance combined with the sticker price of $33k lessens the car’s potential appeal when compared to other vehicles in the price range. The Infinity G35 coupe, while lacking in the power department, outclasses the GTO in many other categories such as outward looks, interior ergonomics, exhaust outlet exit location and trunk space layout to name a few. Please note I did not test drive the GTO so I won’t be offering any opinions of the car’s road manners at this time.

[derf]

Good review. Sounded fair and balanced.

Only one thing to add: There is a trunk release in the glove box. It's a black button surrounded by black trim so it doesn't grab your attention. Not surprising it was overlooked.

I do agree with you on the gauges. I'm hoping someone will make a gauge pod that fits under the radio so I can add an oil pressure and volt gauge at least. That space is really a waste for someone like me who doesn't use it.

[TheNewMonaro]

Originally posted by derf
Only one thing to add: There is a trunk release in the glove box. It's a black button surrounded by black trim so it doesn't grab your attention. Not surprising it was overlooked.

Yep... that always gets people.

[Big Als Z28]

The LS1 accent on the MAF is a nice touch.

that would be the Throttle body. :D

I would MAYBE buy the car. The car’s bland outward appearance combined with the sticker price of $33k lessens the car’s potential appeal when compared to other vehicles in the price range. The Infinity G35 coupe, while lacking in the power department, outclasses the GTO in many other categories such as outward looks, interior ergonomics, exhaust outlet exit location and trunk space layout to name a few. Please note I did not test drive the GTO so I won’t be offering any opinions of the car’s road manners at this time.

Your verditc is fair, but some of your comparisions are a bit skewd. Ergonomics are probably about the same. Ive seen G35's and GTO's and Id say that they are equal if anything. As for looks I guess that varies from person to person by IMO each car is equaly soft in its appearance. I dont see having the exhaust not exiting on seperate sides something that wouldnt make me not buy the car, but whatever thats you. Id hold all comments till I heard the sound of the exhaust. And as for trunk space, I agree with you on that.
Im sure if you had driven the car, your opinon on it would differ. The person looking at this or an G35 coupe test drives a GTO... 9 times out of 10 they will have a better ride in the GTO.

[JCS30TH]

That is odd it does not have a power trunk release:confused:

The lack of a full cluster is a mainstream dislike. I wonder if that 2 guage mount on the HSV would fit.

[derf]

Originally posted by JSC30TH
That is odd it does not have a power trunk release:confused:

The lack of a full cluster is a mainstream dislike. I wonder if that 2 guage mount on the HSV would fit.

Did you not read my post? Or the reply that immediately followed it?

It does have a power trunk release. He just didn't notice it because it doesn't stand out. I didn't notice it myself until I read the owner's manual.

[JCS30TH]

Originally posted by derf
Did you not read my post? Or the reply that immediately followed it?

It does have a power trunk release. He just didn't notice it because it doesn't stand out. I didn't notice it myself until I read the owner's manual.


Obviosly not. Where the hell is it? Must be in an odd place

[derf]

Originally posted by JCS30TH
Obviosly not. Where the hell is it? Must be in an odd place

Don't make me get out the clue-by-four. Try reading this very thread from top to bottom. I bet even you can find where someone posted the information.

Or do you need a hint (http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=49832#post49832)?

[code41ta]

Originally posted by Big Als Z28
that would be the Throttle body. :D



Your verditc is fair, but some of your comparisions are a bit skewd. Ergonomics are probably about the same. Ive seen G35's and GTO's and Id say that they are equal if anything. As for looks I guess that varies from person to person by IMO each car is equaly soft in its appearance. I dont see having the exhaust not exiting on seperate sides something that wouldnt make me not buy the car, but whatever thats you. Id hold all comments till I heard the sound of the exhaust. And as for trunk space, I agree with you on that.
Im sure if you had driven the car, your opinon on it would differ. The person looking at this or an G35 coupe test drives a GTO... 9 times out of 10 they will have a better ride in the GTO.

Actually it would be the neck of the throttle body where the MAF sensor happens to sit :) That is specifically where the LS1 accent sits.

I have not driven either the GTO or the G35 coupe. So I am going with my impressions based upon looking at the car and sitting in the car.

I have already acknowledged the GTO's power advantage over the G35. However at a price of $33k a car must deliver more than just power. I already have the GTO's power level in my much less expensive Trans Am. Thus when the price of the car goes up, the standards the car is judged against go up in my book.

I have heard the sound clips of the GTO exhaust on the Pontiac website. The car sounds very nice. But I can approximate that sound by installing the right parts onto my current Trans Am. Reworking the underside piping on a car to accomodate a dual outlet exhaust with one exit on each side of the car takes more work.

The big difference between the soft look of the G35 and the GTO is large in my eyes. The G35 doesn't really look like any other Infinity. If anything it sort of looks like the 350Z's cousin which isn't a big surprise considering it is the same car underneath the skin.

The GTO OTOH looks just like a Grand Prix coupe or Grand Am coupe or sorta like the Z24 from the late 1990s to my eyes. When I shell out $33k on a car I want something more distinct looking.

[Big Als Z28]

Well then if you did see the GTO, you would have noticed that no Grand am nor Grand Prix looks like the GTO. Nor does it look like any Cavi. I call BS on your whole review. I am being honest, there is no way the GTO looks like any GP or GA. Sorry, there is not a picture in teh world that shows the 2 cars that look the same.
And you said that the GTO's power raiting you get from your Trans Am for a much cheaper price. So why get teh G35? That has even less hp, yet you chose that car over the GTO because.... The GTO "looks" like a whatever? That makes 100% total sence. Sorry, but your out of your mind. There were several Grand Ams and Grand Prix around the GTO I saw, and they didnt look even close. The grand am has about 200lbs of ribbed body cladding, teh grand prix..well if you think the GP looks like the GTO... your blind, or havent seen either car. The GTO is by far the much better car, yet you are gunna get the G35 because it doesnt look like a whatever? On top of the fact that the GTO looks nothing like any of the cars you listed, so you are basicly gunna buy the G35 because...... performance? quality? speed?
Oh I know.... ignorance. :rolleyes:

and your wrong again, the MAF is right after the air box, which if you look at pictures, is very far from the TB. The "LS1" is on the TB. :p
get your lies strait hater. Go buy your import.
http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/brand_int_photo8.jpg

where is that MAF again? :rolleyes:

[derf]

Originally posted by code41ta
Actually it would be the neck of the throttle body where the MAF sensor happens to sit :) That is specifically where the LS1 accent sits.

Go back and look at it again.

The MAF sensor is right next to the air box on the driver's side of the car. That part with the sticker is the throttle body.

[code41ta]

Originally posted by Big Als Z28
Well then if you did see the GTO, you would have noticed that no Grand am nor Grand Prix looks like the GTO. Nor does it look like any Cavi. I call BS on your whole review. I am being honest, there is no way the GTO looks like any GP or GA. Sorry, there is not a picture in teh world that shows the 2 cars that look the same.
And you said that the GTO's power raiting you get from your Trans Am for a much cheaper price. So why get teh G35? That has even less hp, yet you chose that car over the GTO because.... The GTO "looks" like a whatever? That makes 100% total sence. Sorry, but your out of your mind. There were several Grand Ams and Grand Prix around the GTO I saw, and they didnt look even close. The grand am has about 200lbs of ribbed body cladding, teh grand prix..well if you think the GP looks like the GTO... your blind, or havent seen either car. The GTO is by far the much better car, yet you are gunna get the G35 because it doesnt look like a whatever? On top of the fact that the GTO looks nothing like any of the cars you listed, so you are basicly gunna buy the G35 because...... performance? quality? speed?
Oh I know.... ignorance. :rolleyes:

and your wrong again, the MAF is right after the air box, which if you look at pictures, is very far from the TB. The "LS1" is on the TB. :p
get your lies strait hater. Go buy your import.



You're right. Now that I look at the wiring harness, it does resemble the throttle body sensor system not the MAF sensor hook up. Oops. Nice straw man attempt though.

But to call me the hater?! I'm afraid you are the hater. You remind me of the type of person who is all to quick to accuse somebody of being unPatriotic for merely questioning how Bush II is running the country. I'm afraid your blind brand loyalty has made you the strident hater as in you can't see any other viewpoint contrary to your own. In the end the car buyers will decide whether the GTO is a worthy car with their car buying dollars. In my area getting ahold of a GTO isn't that difficult considering the dealer in my neck of the woods has about three on the lot.

The Pontiac dealer had several Grand Ams and Grand Prixs sitting on the lot. The resemblence between the cars, compared to the GTO, is uncanny. Again I acknowledged that as a good thing if the goal is to make the car look like it belongs in the Pontiac family.

IMO that is a bad thing because I desire a car to stand apart from the line in general much like the Camaro/Firebird stood apart from Chevy and Pontiac offerings respectively. The current Corvette looks like nothing in the current Chevy lineup. The only car the C6 sort of looks like is the XLR. No big surprise considering the XLR is the same car underneath the skin.

Besides Al, I don't think you are the target demographic of this car. Unless you are a YAM. Road and Track claims GM is targeting YAM's (young affluent males) with this car. My guess is YAMs are the type of guys who can shell out money for BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus or Infinity type cars.

I'm afraid this is the wrong way to go about it IMO. People who are loyal to BMW and Mercedes will continue to buy these cars for the image the badge conveys. People who buy Lexus or Infinity are far more biased against American cars than I am. I guess blind brand loyalty goes both ways. I am a reasonable moderate compared to the average import (Lexus - Infinity) buyer. The Fast and Furious accents on the gauge facings and foot pedals while a nice touch will not necessarily attract the Fast and Furious crowd despite the Road and Track article's opinion on the gauges and foot pedals. In my experience if someone in the Fast and Furious crowd has $30k+ to blow on a car the S2000 is the most sought after new car in this price range.

Everyone in my family and extended family owns foreign nameplate cars. I am the lone hold out who will still consider buying American. From my experience the average 20 something male does not have the financial means to buy and insure a car such as the GTO. Hence why GM is after the young AFFLUENT male demo.

When I say the GTO looks like the Grand Am I am referring to the car's lines not the body cladding. Just like the Firebird looks like the Trans Am not by the aero kit but via the lines of the car overall. I have seen plenty of Grand Prixs and Grand Ams. The current Grand Prix has no side body cladding BTW. The current Grand Am is only equipped with side cladding on certain models. Which makes a comparison based upon the car's overall lines even easier. (Pontiac's website has plenty of pictures of side cladding free Grand Prixs and Grand Ams.) The Grand Prix does not look exactly like the GTO being the Grand Prix is four doors only. The old Grand Prix coupe does bear an uncanny resemblence in the grill area, C pillar area and the side profile. Plenty of pictures can be found of the old Grand Prix coupe via a google search. The GTO is obviously larger than the Grand Am coupe but shares similar lines in the grill area, C pillar area and overall side profile. Whereas there is hardly any similarity between the G35 and say the Q45 or I35.

I find the G35 more desirable based upon the car's exterior looks, a more useful shaped trunk, ergonomics that make sense (I can actually find the remote trunk button in the G35), quick release on the front seats to ease access to the back seat, a power outlet that is easier to get to for radar detector hookup, optional integrated navigation system, optional Brembo braking system, optional 18" wheels amongst other reasons. An ignorant rationale would not enumerate any such reason for picking one car over the other. I would contend you are the ignorant one if you think I would drop $33k of my hard earned money on a car simply based upon your claim the GTO "is the much better car". Perhaps by your requirements but not necessarily mine.

Like I have said before when a car's price gets to this point other considerations come into play besides the car's power. Otherwise why bother buying a BMW M3 since the Z06 is much more powerful? Because the handling characterics of the M3 appeal to a different set of requirements vs. the handling characterics of the Z06. Both cars are still incredible performance machines in their price class. Yet the older affluent demographic is not buying Z06s exclusively despite the Z06 having the better performance to cost ratio.

But if you are representative of the domestic contingent I'd be ashamed to be associated with the likes of you. Thankfully I know you are just a young kid who is part of the loud shouting minority. Those in the minority tend to shout the loudest from my experience. Most people I have showed the GTO brochure to have remarked the car looks alot like a Grand Am or Grand Prix. Granted these are not car people but these same people don't mistake a G35 as something else usually.

I assure you I am quite cognizant of my mental faculties. From the seething venom in your writing it sounds like you are the one who should perhaps seek therapy. Running around with such anger bottled up is not healthy.

[*JC*]

Originally posted by code41ta
You're right. Now that I look at the wiring harness, it does resemble the throttle body sensor system not the MAF sensor hook up. Oops. Nice straw man attempt though.

But to call me the hater?! I'm afraid you are the hater. You remind me of the type of person who is all to quick to accuse somebody of being unPatriotic for merely questioning how Bush II is running the country. I'm afraid your blind brand loyalty has made you the strident hater as in you can't see any other viewpoint contrary to your own. In the end the car buyers will decide whether the GTO is a worthy car with their car buying dollars. In my area getting ahold of a GTO isn't that difficult considering the dealer in my neck of the woods has about three on the lot.

The Pontiac dealer had several Grand Ams and Grand Prixs sitting on the lot. The resemblence between the cars, compared to the GTO, is uncanny. Again I acknowledged that as a good thing if the goal is to make the car look like it belongs in the Pontiac family.

IMO that is a bad thing because I desire a car to stand apart from the line in general much like the Camaro/Firebird stood apart from Chevy and Pontiac offerings respectively. The current Corvette looks like nothing in the current Chevy lineup. The only car the C6 sort of looks like is the XLR. No big surprise considering the XLR is the same car underneath the skin.

Besides Al, I don't think you are the target demographic of this car. Unless you are a YAM. Road and Track claims GM is targeting YAM's (young affluent males) with this car. My guess is YAMs are the type of guys who can shell out money for BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus or Infinity type cars.

I'm afraid this is the wrong way to go about it IMO. People who are loyal to BMW and Mercedes will continue to buy these cars for the image the badge conveys. People who buy Lexus or Infinity are far more biased against American cars than I am. I guess blind brand loyalty goes both ways. I am a reasonable moderate compared to the average import (Lexus - Infinity) buyer. The Fast and Furious accents on the gauge facings and foot pedals while a nice touch will not necessarily attract the Fast and Furious crowd despite the Road and Track article's opinion on the gauges and foot pedals. In my experience if someone in the Fast and Furious crowd has $30k+ to blow on a car the S2000 is the most sought after new car in this price range.

Everyone in my family and extended family owns foreign nameplate cars. I am the lone hold out who will still consider buying American. From my experience the average 20 something male does not have the financial means to buy and insure a car such as the GTO. Hence why GM is after the young AFFLUENT male demo.

When I say the GTO looks like the Grand Am I am referring to the car's lines not the body cladding. Just like the Firebird looks like the Trans Am not by the aero kit but via the lines of the car overall. I have seen plenty of Grand Prixs and Grand Ams. The current Grand Prix has no side body cladding BTW. The current Grand Am is only equipped with side cladding on certain models. Which makes a comparison based upon the car's overall lines even easier. (Pontiac's website has plenty of pictures of side cladding free Grand Prixs and Grand Ams.) The Grand Prix does not look exactly like the GTO being the Grand Prix is four doors only. The old Grand Prix coupe does bear an uncanny resemblence in the grill area, C pillar area and the side profile. Plenty of pictures can be found of the old Grand Prix coupe via a google search. The GTO is obviously larger than the Grand Am coupe but shares similar lines in the grill area, C pillar area and overall side profile. Whereas there is hardly any similarity between the G35 and say the Q45 or I35.

I find the G35 more desirable based upon the car's exterior looks, a more useful shaped trunk, ergonomics that make sense (I can actually find the remote trunk button in the G35), quick release on the front seats to ease access to the back seat, a power outlet that is easier to get to for radar detector hookup, optional integrated navigation system, optional Brembo braking system, optional 18" wheels amongst other reasons. An ignorant rationale would not enumerate any such reason for picking one car over the other. I would contend you are the ignorant one if you think I would drop $33k of my hard earned money on a car simply based upon your claim the GTO "is the much better car". Perhaps by your requirements but not necessarily mine.

Like I have said before when a car's price gets to this point other considerations come into play besides the car's power. Otherwise why bother buying a BMW M3 since the Z06 is much more powerful? Because the handling characterics of the M3 appeal to a different set of requirements vs. the handling characterics of the Z06. Both cars are still incredible performance machines in their price class. Yet the older affluent demographic is not buying Z06s exclusively despite the Z06 having the better performance to cost ratio.

But if you are representative of the domestic contingent I'd be ashamed to be associated with the likes of you. Thankfully I know you are just a young kid who is part of the loud shouting minority. Those in the minority tend to shout the loudest from my experience. Most people I have showed the GTO brochure to have remarked the car looks alot like a Grand Am or Grand Prix. Granted these are not car people but these same people don't mistake a G35 as something else usually.

I assure you I am quite cognizant of my mental faculties. From the seething venom in your writing it sounds like you are the one who should perhaps seek therapy. Running around with such anger bottled up is not healthy.

:stupid:

[JCS30TH]

Originally posted by code41ta

But to call me the hater?! I'm afraid you are the hater.

I find the G35 more desirable based upon the car's exterior looks, a more useful shaped trunk, ergonomics that make sense (I can actually find the remote trunk button in the G35), quick release on the front seats to ease access to the back seat, a power outlet that is easier to get to for radar detector hookup, optional integrated navigation system, optional Brembo braking system, optional 18" wheels amongst other reasons. An ignorant rationale would not enumerate any such reason for picking one car over the other.

You called that correct on the first point.

I agree with most of what you posted, but then you lost it with the 2nd item above.
The G35 is down right hideous
:mad:

[Big Als Z28]

Originally posted by code41ta
You're right. Now that I look at the wiring harness, it does resemble the throttle body sensor system not the MAF sensor hook up. Oops. Nice straw man attempt though.

[quote][b]But to call me the hater?! I'm afraid you are the hater. You remind me of the type of person who is all to quick to accuse somebody of being unPatriotic for merely questioning how Bush II is running the country. I'm afraid your blind brand loyalty has made you the strident hater as in you can't see any other viewpoint contrary to your own. In the end the car buyers will decide whether the GTO is a worthy car with their car buying dollars. In my area getting ahold of a GTO isn't that difficult considering the dealer in my neck of the woods has about three on the lot.
No, you are a hater. I might be a hater on some cars, but they usualy cary a blue oval. And I dont like Bush Jr., I think hes doing a horrible job, and to everyone who thinks otherwise, tough because Kerry is getting my vote. But thats another topic.
I dont have blind brand loyalt. I have seen and been in both cars, and I give my opinion based on what I have seen. I do like the 350z and G35 coupe, and untill the GTO came in, there was nothing out there to really out-do them. When the GTO came out, it gave great handling, good braking, awesome performance, and the same quality found in the G35, if not better. This is where my "anger" comes from when people say "oh the g35 is better then the GTO because it looks better" and IMO the G35 looks ok, but I like the lines of the GTO much better. The G35 looks like a huskier verision of teh 350z, which it is. I dont undertand peoples opinion when they make no sence.

The Pontiac dealer had several Grand Ams and Grand Prixs sitting on the lot. The resemblence between the cars, compared to the GTO, is uncanny. Again I acknowledged that as a good thing if the goal is to make the car look like it belongs in the Pontiac family.
Uncanny? They must make different grand ams and grand prix in your state, because there was a GP and a GA sitting front and aft of the GTO I saw, and none of them looked like the GTO. Do they have the twin port grill? Yes. Do they have large vertical headlights? Yes. Do they have round driving lights? Yes. Do they look the same? Not one bit. OUTSIDE of the pontiac nose, there is very little you can pick out that shows that they all look the same. Ive seen every single side by side picture people have put up, and probably the only car that comes close is the cavi's rear class and rear 1/4 pannel..

IMO that is a bad thing because I desire a car to stand apart from the line in general much like the Camaro/Firebird stood apart from Chevy and Pontiac offerings respectively. The current Corvette looks like nothing in the current Chevy lineup. The only car the C6 sort of looks like is the XLR. No big surprise considering the XLR is the same car underneath the skin.
I understand that the GTO isnt a stand out, in your face car. I know that, and I would too like a car that stands out more to really attract attention to the GTO, but too many people here want a rebadged trans am with the "GTO" badges put on. I want something that stands out without looking like some crazy, wild scoop-machine.

Besides Al, I don't think you are the target demographic of this car. Unless you are a YAM. Road and Track claims GM is targeting YAM's (young affluent males) with this car. My guess is YAMs are the type of guys who can shell out money for BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus or Infinity type cars.
Your right, Im not as college kinda stops me from being all to affluent, not to mention I just turned 20. That still doesnt mean that I dont want this car. The Element was for my demographic, but more 40 somethings keep buying them. I would love a 350hp, luxury sports coupe from Pontiac, and if I had the money, Id get a yellow GTO. Chances are, that 35k would go twards a project car first, but I would love to own a GTO.

I'm afraid this is the wrong way to go about it IMO. People who are loyal to BMW and Mercedes will continue to buy these cars for the image the badge conveys. People who buy Lexus or Infinity are far more biased against American cars than I am. I guess blind brand loyalty goes both ways. I am a reasonable moderate compared to the average import (Lexus - Infinity) buyer. The Fast and Furious accents on the gauge facings and foot pedals while a nice touch will not necessarily attract the Fast and Furious crowd despite the Road and Track article's opinion on the gauges and foot pedals. In my experience if someone in the Fast and Furious crowd has $30k+ to blow on a car the S2000 is the most sought after new car in this price range.
this is where your wrong, and where people change. I would like to show you that Caddy, a once old mans car that quality and product line has lacked for many years now.
Now with the Escalade, CTS, SRX, XLR, and upcoming STS, Caddy is taking a BIG bite out of a lot of MB and BMW's buyers. Sales numbers keeps going up for Caddy. If your loyal, then your loyal, but loyalist are harder and harder to find now a days. Just look at his board. People jump from Mustang GT, to SS Camaro, to DSM, to STi, to 03 Cobra to Z06. Its the people that are looking for a good car, with good power, good handling, and great quality. For the first time in a very long time, Pontiac has brought to the market something that meets and/or exceeds the performance of many high end cars. And dont go to far with that F&F stuff as the GTO is now in major competition in SCCA sanctioned Drifting.

I find the G35 more desirable based upon the car's exterior looks, a more useful shaped trunk, ergonomics that make sense (I can actually find the remote trunk button in the G35), quick release on the front seats to ease access to the back seat, a power outlet that is easier to get to for radar detector hookup, optional integrated navigation system, optional Brembo braking system, optional 18" wheels amongst other reasons. An ignorant rationale would not enumerate any such reason for picking one car over the other. I would contend you are the ignorant one if you think I would drop $33k of my hard earned money on a car simply based upon your claim the GTO "is the much better car". Perhaps by your requirements but not necessarily mine.
thats fine, but your attitude twards the GTO is very wrong. Having DVD navi, and all that stuff is good, and if thats what you want to spend your money on, thats fine. But your attitude is what bugs me about all this. My beef is not with you and what you want to spend your money on, its your perception on the GTO as this big waste of GM time when its a great car, just not loaded with gizmos and gadgets like the G35 is. But chances are when people look for a sports coupe, then want power, handling, and comfort items.
If the GTO came with all the stuff the G35 did like 18 inch rims large brakes and dvd nav, but kept its appearance, would you rethink your opinon on this car?

But if you are representative of the domestic contingent I'd be ashamed to be associated with the likes of you. Thankfully I know you are just a young kid who is part of the loud shouting minority. Those in the minority tend to shout the loudest from my experience. Most people I have showed the GTO brochure to have remarked the car looks alot like a Grand Am or Grand Prix. Granted these are not car people but these same people don't mistake a G35 as something else usually.
How would you be ashamed of what I said? I give credit where credit it due, and the GTO is owed a lot because it gets none. All I have said above was truthful and nothing to be ashamed of. To say the GTO looks like a Grand Am, now thats shameful. To say the GTO is overpriced, when people were paying 33k for TA's and SS's, thats shameful. To knock the first attempt in a long time by Pontiac to bring a worth while sports coupe to the market, and not be laughed at by the press, now thats shameful.
I am not the minority, and where you got that from, I dont know. The minority seems to be the GTO haters as I see more and more sites that like the GTO. Actualy, only 4th gen fbody owners seem to have a really strong attitude twards this car outside of some GTO die hards. Who knows why this select few doesnt like the GTO?

I assure you I am quite cognizant of my mental faculties. From the seething venom in your writing it sounds like you are the one who should perhaps seek therapy. Running around with such anger bottled up is not healthy.

I am not agry, but your ignorance twards this car and your attitude about the whole thing is wrong. Maybe you need to rethink your attitude twards this car. I know there are many cars out there, but the GTO is a great car for the money.

[JCS30TH]

Originally posted by Big Als Z28
I am not agry, but your ignorance twards this car and your attitude about the whole thing is wrong. Maybe you need to rethink your attitude twards this car. I know there are many cars out there, but the GTO is a great car for the money.

His "claimed ingorance" by you only affects his choice in a car.

The fact that you plan to vote for Kerry is beyond comprehension. What don't you get? Do you even have a clue how worse off this country would be with that guy in office? It isn't just the pres either. You have to consider who he brings to the job. Look at the clinton administration. That was the worst cabinet ever assembled in modern history.

Value your freedom man (what is left of it) while you still can.

[Big Als Z28]

without starting a political thread here, I am going to say BS on the Clinton thing. Clintion did so many things for this country that the republicans claim they did or claim is bs. I have read up on my history, and I know that durring the first bush, time sucked, and when Clinton got in office, by his 2nd term everything in the US was on the up and up and way up. Bush jr gets into office and we find ourselves back in the hole again. Blame it on 9/11, blame it on Mel Gibson... whatever.
I dont consider myself a "liberal" as I disagree with much of what they have to say, and I disagree with what the republicans have to say too. I like certain things from each group, so please please please dont get into this here. If you need to, PM me.

Ok, back to the GTO.

[JCS30TH]

Originally posted by Big Als Z28
without starting a political thread here, I am going to say BS on the Clinton thing. Clintion did so many things for this country that the republicans claim they did or claim is bs. I have read up on my history, and I know that durring the first bush, time sucked, and when Clinton got in office, by his 2nd term everything in the US was on the up and up and way up. Bush jr gets into office and we find ourselves back in the hole again. Blame it on 9/11, blame it on Mel Gibson... whatever.
I dont consider myself a "liberal" as I disagree with much of what they have to say, and I disagree with what the republicans have to say too. I like certain things from each group, so please please please dont get into this here. If you need to, PM me.

Ok, back to the GTO.

It is really sad that you have so little understanding of the political process. If you really want to read up on something get an understanding of who actually runs DC and who writes most of the legislation and government mandates. It will be an eyeopener. At any rate, other than welfare reform, clinton had no accomplishments. I have time and time again challenged anyone to give me thier view on the clinton legacy.

At any rate I willl leave it at that.

[derf]

My $0.02:

The president has little or nothing to do with the economy. Economies are cyclical. They go up, they go down and have nothing to do with the person in office.

If you want to get technical, the economy had already started to tank before Bush was even nominated as the Repub candidate in 2000. I know, I was already looking at bailing out of the dot com sector because of that. Gore lost quite a few states because the economy was on a downward trend.

Don't vote based on your wallet cause the person you vote for doesn't have any effect on that, no matter what the talking heads say.