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MaxRocZ
12-06-2005, 02:57 PM
I've refrain for a while from posting anything public about my experience with AutoWorx this past summer...but it looks like it's time to join everyone else in the little ARE biatch-fest. And let me say first off, I feel really bad for the others that have waited for months and months and spent considerably more than I, only to be disappointed and disgruntled. My experience may seem to pale in comparison to everyone else, but I feel it's post worthy anyway.

*********************

The work that I had requested be done to my car was as follows:

- Install headers and y-pipe (parts provided by myself)
- Install new platinum plugs and wires with boot protectors (parts provided by myself)
- Install front and rear sway bars, and panhard rod (all parts, including the bushings, bolts, etc were provided by myself)
- Change the rear differential fluid with sythetic (fluid and gasket provided by myself)
- Dyno tuning

Issues while car was at the shop:
- Car was dropped off on May 23rd, with work to begin on May 24th and completion of the installation was promised for May 26th. Dyno tuning was scheduled for first thing in the morning on May 27th.
- I called Autoworx on Thursday (May 26th) afternoon to find out if everything was completed, only to find out the installation work had not even begun.
- Friday (May 27th), I spoke with Autoworx several times through out the day, expecting the car to be completed. The car did not get finished and I was told it would be finished up Monday.
- I spoke with Autoworx Monday (May 30th) afternoon and I had a hard time getting a status of my vehicle. I had to phone back several times to get an answer.
- On Tuesday, had Autoworx pick me up at the International Centre because I was told the installation work for my car was completed. Only the dyno tuning had to be done and they said it would be done that night. When I arrived, a Vette was still on the dyno being tuned, so I waited my turn. Due to family problems, Pete had to leave the shop and they were not able to dyno tune my car that night. I was told my car was safe to drive home however and that I could bring it back the next day for the tuning.
- I started the car and proceeded to go home. By the time I got on the 401 highway, within 5-10 minutes of driving, the car started backfiring and showed a definate lack of power. I was unable to turn around at this point since I was on the highway, so I brought the car home. I called the next day, first thing in the morning, and asked that Autoworx tow my car back because it was not driveable at this point. I called later in the morning and was told the car had still not arrived, but someone would call me when they got it. Nobody called back so I called back about 5 hours later and was then told the car arrived 4 hours ago, but nobody had looked at it yet.
- I called back later in the morning (Thursday June 2nd) and was unable to get a status after calling back several times.
- I called back Friday morning (June 3rd) and was told they the plugs were pulled, but still no status or ETA. Pete called Friday night at 9:30pm to say that he was looking at it, but was still not able to diagnose it. I was also told the plugs were replaced, but I was never had the expensive platinum plugs returned to my possession, nor do I know what they installed in it's place?
- Late Monday (June 6th) morning I was told they were having issues with one of the hoists so they had not looked at my car again. I was told the plan was to replace the wires now and if the hoist wasn't fixed by early afternoon then they were going to put it on jackstands and get the work done.
- I called Tuesday (June 7th) early morning and was told that the car still hadn't been worked on. So it obviously was never put up on the hoist or jackstands as told to me the day before. I called back later in the morning and I was told they were just going to start on replacing the plug wires. I called back later in the afternoon and was told they were just going to start on replacing the wires. I called back before leaving work and was told they had just finished one side of the wires. It takes over 3 hours to replace plugs wires?!?
- I called early Wednesday morning and was told they think they fixed the problem. I had originally stated that I wanted to be there in person for the dyno tuning, but they went and did the dyno without me being present. When I arrived to pick up the car, I was presented with the dyno sheet. The numbers were much lower than expected and I stated that. I was told that due to humidity that day, the numbers were understated.

Issues uncovered after the car left the shop:
- Discovered that one of the boot protectors (for the number one spark plug) is missing. Why was this not replaced? So, $10 part goes missing and no mentioned of it missing either? Sloppy workmanship?!? Yes.
- My coolant gauge has not worked properly ever since it left the shop. It worked when I brought the car there before the work was done.
- After about 2-3 weeks of driving, the new polyurethane bushing that were provided with the sway bars started severely squeaking. I removed the rear bushings to inspect them and I was unable to remove the front bushings because they had been over-torqued (proper torque spec is aproximately 20 ft-lbs, so these should be extremely easy to remove). My inspection revealed that the U-shaped bushings for both the front and rear sway bars were NOT greased when they were installed. They were supposed to be and that's why the kit came supplied with special synthetic grease. The full unused grease packets were not returned so I would like to know why they weren't used and where they are now. The u-shaped bushings for the front also came with new bolts. These bolts were not installed, so I would like to know why the old ones were reused and where the new ones are.
- The car was dynoed last year at TAG Racecraft in Oakville at 265RWHP, at the beginning of September. Talking to several shops and owners with MAC headers (the ones I had installed), I should expect between 10-15RWHP. And many people said that a good dyno tuning can gain approximately another 10RWHP. So after the dyno tuning session at Autoworx, I was expecting the car to dyno at approximately 285RWHP. Instead it dynoed at 273. I was only provided with the "after" dyno numbers, so I have no way of knowing if the tune even made a difference, or if the numbers went down. I redynoed at TAG Racecraft this past Saturday (July 23rd) to confirm the numbers. The humidity was down considerbly from when it was dynoed at Autoworx in June and the car only managed to dyno 270RWHP. SO, I would like to know why the headers and tuning from Autoworx only provide me with a 5-8RWHP gain when the experts say I should have gained about 20? This is too significant of a difference in my opinion. Since I was never provided with the "before" numbers for the Autoworx tuning session, and it was done in my absense, I have no way of knowing what was supposedly "tuned". I believe this needs to be addressed.

ARE's Attempt to Resolve the Issue:
After over a month of promises to call me back to arrange an appointment to bring the car back in to fix the problems, they finally came through and booked it. I had to book another day off work and brought the car out to them. There was noooo way I was leaving my car there without me being present. My worry was I wouldn't see the car for several days if I did.

Well, they grease all the sway bar bushings...one problem fixed.

They redyno tuned the car...it was running at an A/F ratio of 10:1 and had some reason slipped from what they had programmed it at the first time. I now dynoed at 286RWHP. However, within 2 weeks of the retuning, the programming had slipped back again. I found the reason out myself...took a non-expert to figure it out. HUGE header leak on the driver's side. So it appears the ECM after getting tuned, was slowing recalibrating itself due to the leak. So once again, I'm down on power and have to pay someone else to fix the header leak.

All the other problems, they were unanswered/unresolved.

An originally promised 3 day job turned into 2 weeks, and I still didn't get a good quality job out of it. After a revisit, I STILL did not get any satisfaction. I can not in a clear conscience recommend that anyone bring their car to this shop.

- chris
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/841155

Croaker
12-06-2005, 03:18 PM
I actually have a picture of your car sitting out in the back parking lot of Autoworx with the hood partially open on May 31st.

Pesticide
12-06-2005, 03:23 PM
The Georgetown gang is well represented here on LS2.:)

WS6SPD
12-06-2005, 03:27 PM
Sorry to hear Chris,

PS. You did a great job in documenting the issues you experienced in this post.

eboggs_jkvl
12-06-2005, 03:48 PM
May I ask what you would consider appropriate response from ARE to call the job complete? I see what you presented and it seems factual but I don't see a resolution or a proposed resolution to make it "good" to you.


E:)

Croaker
12-06-2005, 03:56 PM
May 31st, ~ 1PM

http://www.cr0aker.com/uploads/images/transam/blackz.jpg

http://www.cr0aker.com/uploads/images/transam/dyno.jpg

MaxRocZ
12-06-2005, 04:11 PM
Croaker: Yup...that would be me. I'm sure that's where is resided most of the time too.

eboggs: The proposed to me that they would fix everything if I brought the car back. The only thing they did fix properly the second time round was the sway bar bushings...they don't squeak now. But now because of the header leak, I'm sure the 286HP I got at the second dyno session is probably back to 270 or less. It's running rich as hell again, and if I don't run it on Sunoco 94 now, I get big time knock as well. I used to always run it on 91 octane before without any knock or issue. So the power issue didn't get resolved.

eboggs_jkvl
12-06-2005, 04:20 PM
So to be "all square" they simply need to replace the exhaust gasket and tighten down the leak problem and then a tune to get the A/F to a reasonable number? Was there more that I missed?


E:)

MaxRocZ
12-06-2005, 04:42 PM
For that one problem, you are correct, that should be all that's needed. But based on my bad experience with them, I'll be taking my car to a different shop in the spring to fix the problem. But I'm making an assumption this will for sure fix the running rich problem. Due to the back firing the car was doing when I first picked it up, I won't be surprised if it effected the MAF. But alas, I'm gonna fix one problem at a time.

The other issues I had were small, but they add up...parts that were included with the kits didn't get used like they were supposed to, a part went missing that was unaccounted for, coolant gauge on the dash still doesn't work. The big thing for me, which is a hard thing for anyone to measure, is the wasted time I had to take off work to deal with them, and the shear inconvience of what I thought was an easy job to do turning in a huge headache.

XXV ANN
12-06-2005, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by MaxRocZ
Croaker: Yup...that would be me. I'm sure that's where is resided most of the time too.

eboggs: The proposed to me that they would fix everything if I brought the car back. The only thing they did fix properly the second time round was the sway bar bushings...they don't squeak now. But now because of the header leak, I'm sure the 286HP I got at the second dyno session is probably back to 270 or less. It's running rich as hell again, and if I don't run it on Sunoco 94 now, I get big time knock as well. I used to always run it on 91 octane before without any knock or issue. So the power issue didn't get resolved.

Could the detonation be caused by having too much timing?

I notice that my car also detonates a little unless I'm running 94 octane fuel. I attributed it to the increased compression ratio, but perhaps I'm also running with too much timing.

MaxRocZ
12-06-2005, 04:58 PM
Perhaps Mike...but I'm not going to pretend I know the answer here. For me, I notice the knock (timing being retarded) under hard acceleration and hard load. With just normal driving, there's no sign of it.

CHRISPY
12-06-2005, 05:47 PM
Header leaks can cause all kinds of problems when tuning. If they tuned with the exhaust leak present your tune is going to be completely out of whack both with the header leak present and especially when it is fixed. Problem is the amount of leak varies with temperature of components so it is very unstable.

That being said an exhaust leak will not cause a MAF sensor to die. They would not be corrlelated.

I think if you retune after the leak is fixed you will have no more problems. Check to make sure the MAF tables weren't altered during tuning. Mostly likely WOT tuning was done with PE/RPM table changes.

I am sorry to hear of your troubles...

Cheers,
Chris

MaxRocZ
12-06-2005, 06:56 PM
Thanks Chris...that's exactly my understanding.

The reason I'm skeptical about the MAF now is because of the backfiring that happened when I first picked up the car. I got it home and had popped the hood to see if I could notice anything obvious...like a loose plug wire or something. I briefly blipped the throttle blades and realized it was backfiring out the intake. With the MAF only a foot or so away, and given the sensitivity (aka: lack of durability) of that sensor, I wouldn't be surprised if something happened to it. But first and foremost, I gotta get the header leak fixed first.

Hooper
12-06-2005, 09:56 PM
Your ECT sensor was probably damaged during the header installation. It is located near the exhaust manifold on the drivers side.

DR.ZED
12-06-2005, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Hooper
Your ECT sensor was probably damaged during the header installation. It is located near the exhaust manifold on the drivers side.

That is exactly what i thought as well Hoop. You know typical LSx guys have no idea where anything is on an LT1.... you appear to be an exception. :)

;)

Anyway, I did check that out and indeed the sensor is plugged in and so is the wiring. It is possible the wiring was tugged away from the sensor on the inside.

To NOT mention that to a customer is pure laziness, and I can tell you the dyno operator should have known and watched that BEFORE he hit WOT, comparing it with the reading on his scanning software, if indeed he was using any. If not, he wouldn't have known whether he was going WOT on a cold engine or not... :eek:

Hooper
12-06-2005, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by DR.ZED
That is exactly what i thought as well Hoop. You know typical LSx guys have no idea where anything is on an LT1.... you appear to be an exception. :)

;)

Anyway, I did check that out and indeed the sensor is plugged in and so is the wiring. It is possible the wiring was tugged away from the sensor on the inside.

To NOT mention that to a customer is pure laziness, and I can tell you the dyno operator should have known and watched that BEFORE he hit WOT, comparing it with the reading on his scanning software, if indeed he was using any. If not, he wouldn't have known whether he was going WOT on a cold engine or not... :eek: The actual sensor itself might be fubar. If it gets banged or knocked about during header install it can be damaged. When mine went on me, I checked the wiring to make sure it was plugged in. I unplugged it and plugged it back in- still no no gauge function. Everything looked normal. So, I replaced the sensor and the gauge worked fine after that.

MaxRocZ
12-07-2005, 12:45 PM
That's exactly what I suspect happen too Cam/Hooper. I realized it would have had to of been removed during the header install, so I suspect it was at that point that it got damaged. All I can say is thank God for my LT1 Scanmaster! One of the best mods I've ever installed. :) At least I can still tell accurately what the coolant temperature is.

nosguy
12-08-2005, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by XXV ANN
Could the detonation be caused by having too much timing?

I notice that my car also detonates a little unless I'm running 94 octane fuel. I attributed it to the increased compression ratio, but perhaps I'm also running with too much timing.

Mike, most defenitly the Knock being seen here could be from to much timing, in your case as well. It could also be caused from the AFR being to lean.
Sorry I didn't catch the year of the car, is this an OBD1 conversion? If so the knock sensors are really not even working and it would not pull timing when it would need too!
The problem with tuning on the chassis dyno (dyno jet) is that the load it feels on the dyno is different than what it feels driving in the real world so when finishing the tune you have to error on the conservative side, for example I always add a couple percent of fuel when a car leaves to be safe.

DR.ZED
12-09-2005, 03:45 AM
Mike's car is a 94, and so is Chris's. OBDI.

My new engine is a 1997, OBDII so I'll have to get an OBDI knock sensor and thats it.

XXV ANN
12-09-2005, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by nosguy
Mike, most defenitly the Knock being seen here could be from to much timing, in your case as well. It could also be caused from the AFR being to lean.
Sorry I didn't catch the year of the car, is this an OBD1 conversion? If so the knock sensors are really not even working and it would not pull timing when it would need too!
The problem with tuning on the chassis dyno (dyno jet) is that the load it feels on the dyno is different than what it feels driving in the real world so when finishing the tune you have to error on the conservative side, for example I always add a couple percent of fuel when a car leaves to be safe.

Thanks. I'm going to get the tune redone in the spring.

MaxRocZ
12-09-2005, 01:17 PM
Yes...thanks. I would like to get my tune redone in the spring as well once the header leak is fix...I just don't know where a good place is to take it. I got a couple months to figure that out though. :)

nosguy
12-10-2005, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by MaxRocZ
Yes...thanks. I would like to get my tune redone in the spring as well once the header leak is fix...I just don't know where a good place is to take it. I got a couple months to figure that out though. :)

Shoot me a PM when you are ready for your tune, I would be more than happy to help you out.

CHRISPY
12-14-2005, 01:54 PM
The dynojet loads to the equivalent of a 2800 pound car. Like Wade mentioned it is good practice to add a few % to PE/RPM when tuning on that dyno.

Turbo cars are BRUTAL for this. 11:1 on the dynojet typically reads 12:1 on the street! :eek:

Z07
12-14-2005, 07:36 PM
94-Octane tune vs. 87 Octane Tune


There's more power to be had from the new Z06 but they tuned it rich in case people don't run max available octane.

It's up to you really if you want a safe tune that works well with all grades of fuel or if you want one to maximize performance and be safe at 94 octane.

If it was MY Z06, I'd take the 94 octane only tune and enjoy the extra HP but to each his own.

nosguy
12-14-2005, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Z07
94-Octane tune vs. 87 Octane Tune


There's more power to be had from the new Z06 but they tuned it rich in case people don't run max available octane.

It's up to you really if you want a safe tune that works well with all grades of fuel or if you want one to maximize performance and be safe at 94 octane.

If it was MY Z06, I'd take the 94 octane only tune and enjoy the extra HP but to each his own.

Good point Jim, but the only problem is everyone wants the max hp tune so you do this and then they think its ok here and there to put in lower octane fuel! WRONG!!!! This is why it usually is better to keep conservative when giving the final tune for street use!

eboggs_jkvl
12-14-2005, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by nosguy
Good point Jim, but the only problem is everyone wants the max hp tune so you do this and then they think its ok here and there to put in lower octane fuel! WRONG!!!! This is why it usually is better to keep conservative when giving the final tune for street use!

Thus my point of tuning my car to 93 octane. When it starts to detonate, pull the boost back to where it doesn't and run it there. NOTHING but 93 octane goes into my car. If an emergency hit and I had to run less, no big deal, I just refrain from WOT during that tank and wait until 93 octane is back in the tank.

Yes, I can get much higher numbers by tuning to 100+ octane but why? I sure as hell can't drive to the shows I attend and go WOT without tearing something up.

If you race the car, tune with 100+ and race the car. If you drive the car on the street and can't always get the 100+, then tune it to something you can shove in the tank and have fun with the horse power you do have.

E:)

Z07
12-14-2005, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by nosguy
Good point Jim, but the only problem is everyone wants the max hp tune so you do this and then they think its ok here and there to put in lower octane fuel! WRONG!!!! This is why it usually is better to keep conservative when giving the final tune for street use!

I see what you're saying Wade but think of it this way: Take an ET Street for example. That's a DOT tire designed for max 1/4 mile performance. You don't see them putting in extra deep treads in case the customer thinks it's ok here and there to drive their car in the rain.

You gotta know what you want ahead of time. If you prefer a safer tune that will work with all fuels, great, nothing wrong with that but for those who want max performance out of their car, tuning for 87 Octane won't cut it.

nosguy
12-14-2005, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Z07
I see what you're saying Wade but think of it this way: Take an ET Street for example. That's a DOT tire designed for max 1/4 mile performance. You don't see them putting in extra deep treads in case the customer thinks it's ok here and there to drive their car in the rain.

You gotta know what you want ahead of time. If you prefer a safer tune that will work with all fuels, great, nothing wrong with that but for those who want max performance out of their car, tuning for 87 Octane won't cut it.

Jim I'm not talking about 87 octane but maybe 91 but it is up to the individual customer, this is part of knowing what a customer really wants and understanding there needs.
Were the problem starts is if the engine has a failure after the tune even if it was un related it usually is the tuners fault.:rolleyes: Also when you are a business and stand behind your work ( warranty ) it is good to put a safety factor in there thats all I'm trying to say. If its a track car and you know that the customer is an all out racer and understands these things you can put things a little more on the edge.
Your example does not work based on as soon as you drive a car with et streets on it you know right away that they are not for every day use, but a un safe tune alot of people can't here pinging or just does not know the damage that can happen.

Z07
12-14-2005, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by nosguy
Jim I'm not talking about 87 octane but maybe 91 but it is up to the individual customer, this is part of knowing what a customer really wants and understanding there needs.

I agree it IS up to the customer, and only till the customer knows what he wants will the tuner know.





Were the problem starts is if the engine has a failure after the tune even if it was un related it usually is the tuners fault.:rolleyes:


So engine failure after a dyno pull even that's unrelated is usually the tuners fault? I guess then you don't have them sign a waiver?




it is good to put a safety factor in there thats all I'm trying to say.

I agree but I think the customer should decide how safe it should be and the shop should apply the warranty accordingly.




Your example does not work based on as soon as you drive a car with et streets on it you know right away that they are not for every day use

I never said everyday use I said rain use. Are you going to tell me nobody has ever taken the chance that it may rain and driven to the track regardless? Yes they have, yes they do and yes they still will. Same thing. Not using the car as intended. That is not MT's fault. If you would like a tire that's better suited for that they can provide you with one.

It all comes down to what the customers want.

DR.ZED
12-15-2005, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by nosguy
Good point Jim, but the only problem is everyone wants the max hp tune so you do this and then they think its ok here and there to put in lower octane fuel! WRONG!!!! This is why it usually is better to keep conservative when giving the final tune for street use!

... and a lot harder to prove one used regular gas when a problem arises, and the engine builder is to blame. Liability is a nasty sword.

MaxRocZ
12-19-2005, 04:57 PM
I think the bottom line here is I wasn't asked what octane level I wanted the car tuned to...I never used Sunoco 94 before this...I always used to run 91 because it's much more widely available. I assumed it was tuned to regular gas.

eboggs_jkvl
12-19-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by MaxRocZ
I think the bottom line here is I wasn't asked what octane level I wanted the car tuned to...I never used Sunoco 94 before this...I always used to run 91 because it's much more widely available. I assumed it was tuned to regular gas.


One must never assume on the details. I consider the octane of the gas as a tuning statistic. When I went to get my tune, I stated flat out that it will be tuned for 93 octane. If you can only get 91, then that is what you should have listed in your "order" for tuning requirements.

My $.02.


E:)

MaxRocZ
12-21-2005, 01:34 PM
I'm plead ignornance to this one then, and a lesson learned for the future. I've never had a car tuned before, so I was new to the process and I assumed they were going to ask me what I wanted...and they never did. So I assumed yet again with they're experience that they knew what to do. (side note: I am in no way knocking on Pete's tuning abilities or Pete himself...Pete's a good guy and I think they're may have just been an oversight) Perhaps a questionnaire or something along those lines should be mandatory to avoid any misconceptions as to how the car's being tuned up. Bottom line yet again...I wasn't asked what I wanted. Do you walk into a restaurant, sit down and they just hand you any odd plate of food?...no...they ask you what you would like. Do you go to a gas station (that offers more than one octane rating) and they just fill it up?...no...not normally...they ask you what you would like.

eboggs_jkvl
12-21-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by MaxRocZ
I'm plead ignornance to this one then, and a lesson learned for the future. I've never had a car tuned before, so I was new to the process and I assumed they were going to ask me what I wanted...and they never did. So I assumed yet again with they're experience that they knew what to do. (side note: I am in no way knocking on Pete's tuning abilities or Pete himself...Pete's a good guy and I think they're may have just been an oversight) Perhaps a questionnaire or something along those lines should be mandatory to avoid any misconceptions as to how the car's being tuned up. Bottom line yet again...I wasn't asked what I wanted. Do you walk into a restaurant, sit down and they just hand you any odd plate of food?...no...they ask you what you would like. Do you go to a gas station (that offers more than one octane rating) and they just fill it up?...no...not normally...they ask you what you would like.


The tuning questionnaire sounds like an excellent document that a motor shop should have. Motor orders, tuning specifics, EXCELLENT idea. Having it in writing elimnates the verbal promises and the missed "assumes".

Elmer

MaxRocZ
12-21-2005, 05:33 PM
Absolutely...I rely on paper trails in my line of business, no reason why it wouldn't work in the case of the automotive repair/tuning industry as well. It could be an advantage to both sides of the fence.