GM restructuring plan announced (Merged).

[QWIKLS1]

Rumor is they're planning on cutting a minimum 25,000 jobs.

GM prepares to wield job ax but analysts skeptical
Fri Nov 18, 2005 02:29 PM ET

By Jui Chakravorty
DETROIT, Nov 18 (Reuters) - As General Motors Corp. (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) prepares to announce much-awaited job cuts and U.S. assembly plant closings, analysts wonder if the cuts will be aggressive enough to convince people of a possible turnaround at the ailing auto giant.

The world's largest automaker, which has lost nearly $4 billion this year, has said it will provide details by the end of 2005 about its previously announced plan to cut at least 25,000 manufacturing jobs as part of a broader restructuring plan.

"Announcing the plan alone will not be enough," Standard & Poor's equity analyst Efraim Levy said on Friday. "If the plan is not concrete, not enough, or not realizable, Wall Street could take it negatively."

Chief Executive Richard Wagoner has committed to a series of plant closings and the elimination of nearly a quarter of GM's U.S. factory work force through 2008.

"They need to lose a lot more jobs through 2008. The 25,000 number is the natural attrition rate, and they need to go beyond the ordinary to accomplish any change. They need more, a lot more," Levy said.

GM has been grappling with high health-care and commodities costs, loss of U.S. market share to foreign rivals, and slumping sales of large sport utility vehicles which used to be its profit center, but have now lost popularity due to high gasoline prices.

To make matters worse, GM's main parts supplier -- bankrupt Delphi Corp. (DPHIQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) -- is battling with its unions and will ask the court to void its labor contracts if a deal is not reached by mid-December. A strike at Delphi could shut down some GM and Delphi plants and could force the automaker to burn through billions of dollars a week, analysts have said.

A work stoppage could also cripple GM, Delphi's largest customer, as it prepares to roll out its GMT-900 truck series, a crucial component of its recovery plan.

PRESSURE MOUNTS

Wagoner in June said the proposed cuts would save the automaker $2.5 billion a year. But analysts worry about expenses associated with the cost cuts, and some estimates predict that early retirement and employee relocation costs could total up to $2 billion.

As investors await the changes, the Detroit News on Friday reported GM plans to make the announcement as early as next week.

"We have said that we will make announcements by the end of the year and that's what we will be doing," GM spokesman Stefan Weinmann said. "And we won't provide any more specifics."

Wagoner has said he plans to cut manufacturing capacity to match demand by 2008. Some experts believe The Lansing Craft Centre, where GM builds the Chevrolet SSR, will likely be shut down because the convertible sport pickup has not been selling very well and GM has idled the plant for several months this year.

At least two other plants likely to be shut down are the Doraville, Georgia, plant, which builds GM's minivans, and an SUV plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, analysts said.

The new plant closings will add to three assembly plants that GM has already closed or stopped production at this year: a car plant in Lansing, Michigan, an SUV plant in Linden, New Jersey, and a van plant in Baltimore.

GM will also have to shed its old habit of keeping furloughed workers on the payroll and typically cutting factory jobs only by retiring workers after 30 years of services, analysts say.

Analysts also worry that GM's proposed sale of a 51-percent stake in its finance arm will reduce pressure to undergo a major restructuring, as the sale could bring in as much as $15 billion.

Still, GM shares rose 96 cents, or 4.3 percent, to $23.60 in Friday trade on the New York Stock Exchange.


At least Wall st appears to like the news. :hs: Last trade was $23.69.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=gm

Matt

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

they need sales to pickup big time.



no matter what happens people will be losing jobs that will never come back. :(

[idareu]

If you take out the rental car sales, Gm is really down this fall.

[dave1w41]

GM North America to Undergo Major Capacity Reduction



Next Significant Step in GM's North American Turnaround Plan
9 Assembly, Stamping & Powertrain Facilities, 3 SPO Facilities to Cease Operations
Total Reduction of 30,000 Positions
Total Cost Reduction Running Rate of $7 Billion by End of 2006

DETROIT - General Motors will undergo a wide-ranging restructuring of its manufacturing operations in the United States and Canada as part of its comprehensive four-point plan to return the company to profitability and long-term growth, GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner announced today.

GM's next step in its North American turnaround plan addresses its ongoing capacity utilization, a major component of reducing structural cost. A total of nine assembly, stamping and powertrain facilities and three Service and Parts Operations facilities will cease operations.

The additional actions will reduce GMNA assembly capacity by about 1 million units by the end of 2008, in addition to the previously implemented reduction of 1 million units between 2002 and 2005. Factoring in the additional capacity from GM's new Delta Township facility in Lansing, Mich., slated to begin production next year, the overall net result will be a GMNA assembly capacity of 4.2 million units. While down 30 percent since 2002, this capacity level will still provide GM plenty of flexibility to anticipate and meet market demand, but in a much more cost-effective manner. A total of 30,000 manufacturing positions will be eliminated from 2005 through 2008.

"The decisions we are announcing today were very difficult to reach because of their impact on our employees and the communities where we live and work," Wagoner added. "But these actions are necessary for GM to get its costs in line with our major global competitors. In short, they are an essential part of our plan to return our North American operations to profitability as soon as possible.

"We continue to be equally committed to revenue drivers - introducing compelling new cars and trucks, and executing our revitalized sales and marketing strategy - and we have received ratification of the agreement with the UAW, which will help significantly to address our health-care cost challenges," Wagoner said. "We are making steady and significant progress in implementing the plan to turn around our U.S. business."

The following six assembly plant sites will be affected in the years indicated:

Oklahoma City, Okla., will cease production in early 2006.
Lansing, Mich., Craft Centre will cease production in mid-2006.
Spring Hill, Tenn., Plant/Line No. 1, will cease production at the end of 2006.
Doraville, Ga., will cease production at the end of its current products' lifecycle in 2008.
The third shift will be removed at Oshawa Car Plant No. 1, in Ontario, Canada, in the second half of 2006. Subsequently, Oshawa Car Plant No. 2 will cease production after the current product runs out in 2008.
The third shift will be removed at Moraine, Ohio, during 2006, with timing to be based on market demand.
Capacity-related actions affecting stamping, Service & Parts Operations and powertrain facilities include:

The Lansing, Mich., Metal Center will cease production in 2006.
The Pittsburgh, Pa., Metal Center will cease production in 2007.
The Parts Distribution Center in Portland, Ore., will cease operations in 2006; the Parts Distribution Center in St. Louis, Mo., will cease warehousing activities and will be converted to a collision center facility in 2006; the Parts Processing Center in Ypsilanti, Mich., will cease operations in 2007. One additional Parts Processing Center, to be announced at a later date, will also cease operations in 2007.
The competitiveness of all unitizing (packaging) operations at the Pontiac, Drayton Plains, and Ypsilanti Processing Centers in Michigan, as well as portions of the unitizing operations at the Flint, Mich., Processing Center will be evaluated in accordance with the provisions of the GM-UAW national agreement.
St. Catharines Ontario Street West powertrain components facility in Ontario, Canada, will cease production in 2008.
The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008.
Given the demographics of GM's workforce, the company plans to achieve much of the job reduction via attrition and early retirement programs. GM will work with the leadership of its unions, as any early retirement program would need to be mutually agreed upon. GM hopes to reach an agreement on such a plan as soon as possible.

"These are difficult moves that will affect thousands of dedicated GM employees and families, as well as state and local governments," Wagoner said. "We will work our hardest to mitigate that impact."

There will be a significant restructuring charge in conjunction with this capacity announcement, and also with any related early retirement program. The details of these charges will be provided when available.

Wagoner also said the company has further accelerated its efforts in structural cost reduction, raising the previously indicated $5 billion running rate cost reduction plan in North America to $6 billion by the end of 2006. In addition, GM continues to pursue its plans to target $1 billion in net material cost savings. In total, the plan is to achieve $7 billion of cost reductions on a running rate basis by the end of 2006 - $1 billion above the previously indicated target.

"Our collective goal remains the same: to return our North American operations to sustained profitability as soon as possible, thereby helping to ensure a strong General Motors for the future," Wagoner concluded.

General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM), the world's largest automaker, has been the global industry sales leader since 1931. Founded in 1908, GM today employs about 325,000 people around the world. It has manufacturing operations in 32 countries and its vehicles are sold in 200 countries. In 2004, GM sold nearly 9 million cars and trucks globally, up 4 percent and the second-highest total in the company's history. GM's global headquarters are at the GM Renaissance Center in Detroit. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com.

[MACGI 98 Z28]

November 21, 2005


GM North America to Undergo Major Capacity Reduction


Next Significant Step in GM's North American Turnaround Plan
9 Assembly, Stamping & Powertrain Facilities, 3 SPO Facilities to Cease Operations total Reduction of 30,000 Positions
Total Cost Reduction Running Rate of $7 Billion by End of 2006


DETROIT - General Motors will undergo a wide-ranging restructuring of its manufacturing operations in the United States and Canada as part of its comprehensive four-point plan to return the company to profitability and long-term growth, GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner announced today.


GM's next step in its North American turnaround plan addresses its ongoing capacity utilization, a major component of reducing structural cost. A total of nine assembly, stamping and powertrain facilities and three Service and Parts Operations facilities will cease operations.


The additional actions will reduce GMNA assembly capacity by about 1 million units by the end of 2008, in addition to the previously
implemented reduction of 1 million units between 2002 and 2005.
Factoring in the additional capacity from GM's new Delta Township
facility in Lansing, Mich., slated to begin production next year, the
overall net result will be a GMNA assembly capacity of 4.2 million
units. While down 30 percent since 2002, this capacity level will still
provide GM plenty of flexibility to anticipate and meet market demand,
but in a much more cost-effective manner. A total of 30,000
manufacturing positions will be eliminated from 2005 through 2008.


"The decisions we are announcing today were very difficult to reach
because of their impact on our employees and the communities where we
live and work," Wagoner added. "But these actions are necessary for GM
to get its costs in line with our major global competitors. In short,
they are an essential part of our plan to return our North American
operations to profitability as soon as possible.


"We continue to be equally committed to revenue drivers - introducing
compelling new cars and trucks, and executing our revitalized sales and
marketing strategy - and we have received ratification of the agreement
with the UAW, which will help significantly to address our health-care
cost challenges," Wagoner said. "We are making steady and significant
progress in implementing the plan to turn around our U.S. business."


The following six assembly plant sites will be affected in the years
indicated:
Oklahoma City, Okla., will cease production in early 2006.
Lansing, Mich., Craft Centre will cease production in mid-2006.
Spring Hill, Tenn., Plant/Line No. 1, will cease production at
the end of 2006.
Doraville, Ga., will cease production at the end of its current
products' lifecycle in 2008.
The third shift will be removed at Oshawa Car Plant No. 1, in
Ontario, Canada, in the second half of 2006. Subsequently, Oshawa
Car Plant No. 2 will cease production after the current product
runs out in 2008.
The third shift will be removed at Moraine, Ohio, during 2006,
with timing to be based on market demand.


Capacity-related actions affecting stamping, Service & Parts Operations
and powertrain facilities include:
The Lansing, Mich., Metal Center will cease production in 2006.
The Pittsburgh, Pa., Metal Center will cease production in 2007.
The Parts Distribution Center in Portland, Ore., will cease
operations in 2006; the Parts Distribution Center in St. Louis,
Mo., will cease warehousing activities and will be converted to a
collision center facility in 2006; the Parts Processing Center in
Ypsilanti, Mich., will cease operations in 2007. One additional
Parts Processing Center, to be announced at a later date, will
also cease operations in 2007.
The competitiveness of all unitizing (packaging) operations at
the Pontiac, Drayton Plains, and Ypsilanti Processing Centers in
Michigan, as well as portions of the unitizing operations at the
Flint, Mich., Processing Center will be evaluated in accordance
with the provisions of the GM-UAW national agreement.
St. Catharines Ontario Street West powertrain components facility
in Ontario, Canada, will cease production in 2008.
The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will
cease production in 2008.


Given the demographics of GM's workforce, the company plans to achieve
much of the job reduction via attrition and early retirement programs.
GM will work with the leadership of its unions, as any early retirement
program would need to be mutually agreed upon. GM hopes to reach an
agreement on such a plan as soon as possible.


"These are difficult moves that will affect thousands of dedicated GM
employees and families, as well as state and local governments,"
Wagoner said. "We will work our hardest to mitigate that impact."


There will be a significant restructuring charge in conjunction with
this capacity announcement, and also with any related early retirement
program. The details of these charges will be provided when available.


Wagoner also said the company has further accelerated its efforts in
structural cost reduction, raising the previously indicated $5 billion
running rate cost reduction plan in North America to $6 billion by the
end of 2006. In addition, GM continues to pursue its plans to target $1
billion in net material cost savings. In total, the plan is to achieve
$7 billion of cost reductions on a running rate basis by the end of
2006 - $1 billion above the previously indicated target.


"Our collective goal remains the same: to return our North American
operations to sustained profitability as soon as possible, thereby
helping to ensure a strong General Motors for the future," Wagoner
concluded.

Is anyone going to jump in here and tell us exactly how the UAW "protects" jobs? The fact is that they DO NOT protect jobs, but instead create incentive for GM to eliminate them in massive numbers.

[MACGI 98 Z28]

They are eliminating in excess of 30,000 jobs. Since the new 2007 UAW contract won't include any jobs bank with GM, those jobs and incomes are gone for good.

[BishopSS]

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
Is anyone going to jump in here and tell us exactly how the UAW "protects" jobs? The fact is that they DO NOT protect jobs, but instead create incentive for GM to eliminate them in massive numbers.


The union members in the affected plants will never miss a paycheck. Even after they close the doors.


Thats how the union protected their jobs.

[judge smails]

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
They are eliminating in excess of 30,000 jobs. Since the new 2007 UAW contract won't include any jobs bank with GM, those jobs and incomes are gone for good.

How many workers are elligible for retirement? Id bet its close to 30,000 people. Many of those jobs will just morph into pensions.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by judge smails
How many workers are elligible for retirement? Id bet its close to 30,000 people. Many of those jobs will just morph into pensions.

Correct. A lot of this is going to be retirement.

Macgi is right though, GM would be completely stupid to let the jobs bank go on after the next contract. That whole concept is as dead as Elvis.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by judge smails
How many workers are elligible for retirement? Id bet its close to 30,000 people. Many of those jobs will just morph into pensions.


Pensions yes, healthcare negative. GM won't support it anymore.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by BishopSS
The union members in the affected plants will never miss a paycheck. Even after they close the doors.


Thats how the union protected their jobs.


Until the Contract expires or GM declares bankruptcy.....whichever comes first.

[judge smails]

Originally posted by mrgto
Pensions yes, healthcare negative. GM won't support it anymore.

And they shouldnt.

Yeah, I said it.

[judge smails]

Originally posted by mrgto
Until the Contract expires or GM declares bankruptcy.....whichever comes first.

When these plants go down, alot of shuffling will happen. Old timers will be forced out to make room for the people losing work in the shuttered plants. Yes, some will not have a job. But many will move on to other plants to fill the spots.

That should be the UAWs mission, to make sure all the displaced workers find work in other plants. If that means letting GM force out older "coffee pot operators" then so be it.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by judge smails
And they shouldnt.

Yeah, I said it.

I suggest you run for the presidency of the UAW.

[BigOgre]

Is anybody able to interpret what this means as far as what models/engines/etc will be produced.

The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will
cease production in 2008.

Does that mean that the 3800 is dead now, or is it produced in more than 1 plant?

Any ideas of what this means for the future of Corvette? Blue Devil? Corvette Racing? Camaro? LS2/7?

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by BigOgre

1. Does that mean that the 3800 is dead now, or is it produced in more than 1 plant?

2. Any ideas of what this means for the future of Corvette? Blue Devil? Corvette Racing? Camaro? LS2/7?

1. Yes
2. Nothing so far.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

GM is not declaring bankruptcy.



where does this keep coming from? :confused:

[426HEMI]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
GM is not declaring bankruptcy.



where does this keep coming from? :confused:

Speculation, ignorance, stupidity. Take your pick.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by 426Hemi
Speculation, ignorance, stupidity. Take your pick.

its been announced several times yet people keep bringing it up.



id swear some people here want it to happen.


their hatred for unions overcomes their common sense.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
its been announced several times yet people keep bringing it up.



id swear some people here want it to happen.


their hatred for unions overcomes their common sense.


Do you understand what goes on during Bankruptcy?

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by mrgto
Do you understand what goes on during Bankruptcy?

do you understand GM isnt going bankrupt though i know youre praying they do so every UAW worker is out of work.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
do you understand GM isnt going bankrupt though i know youre praying they do so every UAW worker is out of work.


You failed to answer my questions so it means you do and if GM goes bankrupt, so does Ford and so does DC because it would mean basically all the UAW would become irrelevant as far as health care goes.

If the MORONS at the UAW knew what was good for them they would beg and pead to take care of this health care issue, nip it in the bud and they might have jobs in the near future. It won't happen and they sow their own fate.

[judge smails]

Originally posted by mrgto
You failed to answer my questions so it means you do and if GM goes bankrupt, so does Ford and so does DC because it would mean basically all the UAW would become irrelevant as far as health care goes.

If the MORONS at the UAW knew what was good for them they would beg and pead to take care of this health care issue, nip it in the bud and they might have jobs in the near future. It won't happen and they sow their own fate.

The issue at hand is the percentage that white collar workers pay vs blue collar. White collar workers pay 27% while blues pay 0-5%. If the blue collar side paid the 27%, GM would save 900 million dollars a year. Their total spent on HC as of now is 5 billion a year. What is the difference between 4 and 5 billion dollars? How does this solve the problem?

If the UAW agreed to a 50% HC charge, that still would not solve the issue of rising health care costs. We are going to get national health care one way or another. Either by passing it, or to pay for those that continue to lose coverage. The latter which we already do.


You cant nip health care by raising premiums.

[dave1w41]

GM would save 900 million dollars a year. Their total spent on HC as of now is 5 billion a year. What is the difference between 4 and 5 billion dollars? How does this solve the problem?

You cant nip health care by raising premiums.



How does that math work? They got the Retirees to pay a tiny percentage more (totaling about 10%) and it saved well over 1 billion dollars per year. If they got retirees and current hourly to pay 30% and raised the white collar to 30% from 27% it would save FAR MORE than 900 million dollars. It would be more like 2 billion.

GM can't magically create national health care and neither can the UAW. Until the general public (the other 250,000,000 people in the country) see it as an urgent issue, the UAW is going to have to deal with it like everyone else.

[judge smails]

Originally posted by dave1w41
How does that math work? They got the Retirees to pay a tiny percentage more (totaling about 10%) and it saved well over 1 billion dollars per year. If they got retirees and current hourly to pay 30% and raised the white collar to 30% from 27% it would save FAR MORE than 900 million dollars. It would be more like 2 billion.

GM can't magically create national health care and neither can the UAW. Until the general public (the other 250,000,000 people in the country) see it as an urgent issue, the UAW is going to have to deal with it like everyone else.

I got that total straight from the Detroit News. This snippet says it will be a 300 million dollar savings.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0506/17/A01-215266.htm

[mrgto]

Originally posted by judge smails
The issue at hand is the percentage that white collar workers pay vs blue collar. White collar workers pay 27% while blues pay 0-5%. If the blue collar side paid the 27%, GM would save 900 million dollars a year. Their total spent on HC as of now is 5 billion a year. What is the difference between 4 and 5 billion dollars? How does this solve the problem?

If the UAW agreed to a 50% HC charge, that still would not solve the issue of rising health care costs. We are going to get national health care one way or another. Either by passing it, or to pay for those that continue to lose coverage. The latter which we already do.


You cant nip health care by raising premiums.


ALL OF THEM, both blue and white should pay 75%. GM should pay 25% of retirees, then at a certain age increase it.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by mrgto
You failed to answer my questions so it means you do and if GM goes bankrupt, so does Ford and so does DC because it would mean basically all the UAW would become irrelevant as far as health care goes.

If the MORONS at the UAW knew what was good for them they would beg and pead to take care of this health care issue, nip it in the bud and they might have jobs in the near future. It won't happen and they sow their own fate.


all i said was GM isnt declaring bankruptcy.where this other nonsense youre talking about i have no idea.

the UAW has been cooperative in assisting GM in cutting costs but its obvious as long as theyre around itll never be enough.


its painfully obvious you want the big three to go under so the UAW will go away.


but if thousands of people are out of work and a recession occurs all that matters is if youre happy when theyre gone.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
all i said was GM isnt declaring bankruptcy.where this other nonsense youre talking about i have no idea.

the UAW has been cooperative in assisting GM in cutting costs but its obvious as long as theyre around itll never be enough.


its painfully obvious you want the big three to go under so the UAW will go away.


but if thousands of people are out of work and a recession occurs all that matters is if youre happy when theyre gone.


They haven't declared it YET. And since you don't know what is involved you seem to think that Bankruptcy means going out of business. It doesn't.

If the UAW were cooperative, they would do whatever necessary to turn the company around. They haven't donethat.

I want the UAW to implode, not the big three to go away.

Go read a few books about Bankruptcy and educate yourself.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by mrgto
They haven't declared it YET. And since you don't know what is involved you seem to think that Bankruptcy means going out of business. It doesn't.

If the UAW were cooperative, they would do whatever necessary to turn the company around. They haven't donethat.

I want the UAW to implode, not the big three to go away.

Go read a few books about Bankruptcy and educate yourself.


WTF did i say bankruptcy meant going out of business? :confused:


its painfully obvious no matter what the UAW does it wont be enough to make you happy.


youd rather people build cars for $5 a day so CEOs can make millions and not have to answer to anyone.


of course you think if that happened theyd pass the savings on to us? :lol: yea right.


come pat yourself on the back when theres thousands of people out of work.Im sure itll make your day.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
WTF did i say bankruptcy meant going out of business? :confused:


its painfully obvious no matter what the UAW does it wont be enough to make you happy.


youd rather people build cars for $5 a day so CEOs can make millions and not have to answer to anyone.


of course you think if that happened theyd pass the savings on to us? :lol: yea right.


come pat yourself on the back when theres thousands of people out of work.Im sure itll make your day.


Funny, you were the ones putting the words into my mouth about going out of business....you still haven't answer my questions about what Bankruptcy does.

LOL, they can keep their current pay, but the health care benefits for retire's have to go, the paying in of 7% of their health insurance has to go, etc. Sorry, but if the UAW workers are too stupid to realize it is better to do those kinds of things instead of being out of work AND benefits, then they get what they deserve.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by mrgto
Funny, you were the ones putting the words into my mouth about going out of business....you still haven't answer my questions about what Bankruptcy does.

LOL, they can keep their current pay, but the health care benefits for retire's have to go, the paying in of 7% of their health insurance has to go, etc. Sorry, but if the UAW workers are too stupid to realize it is better to do those kinds of things instead of being out of work AND benefits, then they get what they deserve.

and still you refuse to acknowledge GM said its not going to declare bankruptcy.

that was my original argument.


why is it so important to you i know this?

i never put any words into your mouth.


i stated the obvious which is that youd rather see the UAW go away which you already have said numerous times.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
and still you refuse to acknowledge GM said its not going to declare bankruptcy.

that was my original argument.


why is it so important to you i know this?

i never put any words into your mouth.


i stated the obvious which is that youd rather see the UAW go away which you already have said numerous times.


They can say it all they want. When it comes down to it if things don't change, they will do it.

Yup, the UAW can go away and trust me, it won't be missed.

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by mrgto
They can say it all they want. When it comes down to it if things don't change, they will do it.

Yup, the UAW can go away and trust me, it won't be missed.

yes,i agree if things dont change theyll have no choice.



thing is i think youd rather see that happen instead of GM recovering.

[SphyNxXx]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS



youd rather people build cars for $5 a day so CEOs can make millions and not have to answer to anyone.



From what Ive heard, GM does need to do something about blue collar wages. Don't they pay like $30/hour or something for the floor workers? The new Hyaundai plany here in Alabama pays around $14.xx hour starting off and you will get raises up to $20.xx/hour and a cost of living raise from there on. The workers here are very happy with that pay and people have flocked to get jobs there.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
yes,i agree if things dont change theyll have no choice.



thing is i think youd rather see that happen instead of GM recovering.


The only way GM recovers before 2007 is to declare bankruptcy or the Union gives in totally and realizes that the only way to save themselves is to help save GM.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by mrgto
The only way GM recovers before 2007 is to declare bankruptcy or the Union gives in totally and realizes that the only way to save themselves is to help save GM.

Problem is that people don't buy cars from bankrupt car companies. If they did, GM would have already declared bankruptcy.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Problem is that people don't buy cars from bankrupt car companies. If they did, GM would have already declared bankruptcy.

If that were true people wouldn't fly airlines that are in Bankruptcy either. It hasn't stopped travelers from doing so.

I think GM is doing everything in it's power to NOT resort to Bankruptcy, but I think eventually that is what it is going to come down to.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by mrgto
If that were true people wouldn't fly airlines that are in Bankruptcy either. It hasn't stopped travelers from doing so.

I think GM is doing everything in it's power to NOT resort to Bankruptcy, but I think eventually that is what it is going to come down to.

It isn't the same thing at all. Buying a vehicle has a significant financial impact as well as a recognized commitment for parts and service for the life of the vehicle. People believe that "bankrupt" means "going out of business" and that the parts, service, warranty, that that has been comitted to won't be kept. This affects every aspect of vehicle ownership, maintenance parts, resale value, etc. It is in no way, shape, or form, like the short-term commitment of flying on an airplane.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by dave1w41
It isn't the same thing at all. Buying a vehicle has a significant financial impact as well as a recognized commitment for parts and service for the life of the vehicle. People believe that "bankrupt" means "going out of business" and that the parts, service, warranty, that that has been comitted to won't be kept. This affects every aspect of vehicle ownership, maintenance parts, resale value, etc. It is in no way, shape, or form, like the short-term commitment of flying on an airplane.


No, just wonding if the upkeep of the airplane of which you are TRAVELING on is still there during bankruptcy. Just your life depends on it. ;)

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by mrgto
No, just wonding if the upkeep of the airplane of which you are TRAVELING on is still there during bankruptcy. Just your life depends on it. ;)

Airplane maintenance is a Federally regulated mandate, not subject to the whims of a bankruptcy court judge. Parts, service, and loss of value are not. People that fly are contracting for a service with a short-term shelf life. Buying a vehicle is more akin to buying a house. If your electric company went bankrupt you would expect that your power would not go out overnight or in the next few weeks. A vehicle constitutes a commitment of nearly a decade for many customers, it is completely different than flying on an airline.

[mrgto]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Airplane maintenance is a Federally regulated mandate, not subject to the whims of a bankruptcy court judge. Parts, service, and loss of value are not. People that fly are contracting for a service with a short-term shelf life. Buying a vehicle is more akin to buying a house. If your electric company went bankrupt you would expect that your power would not go out overnight or in the next few weeks. A vehicle constitutes a commitment of nearly a decade for many customers, it is completely different than flying on an airline.

And going bankrupt doesn't mean the dealers will magically disappear.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by mrgto
And going bankrupt doesn't mean the dealers will magically disappear.

I know that and you know that but the average dumb-ass american associates bankrupt with defunct. They won't buy perfectly good American made products without the spectre of bankruptcy, what makes you think they will be clamoring for them from "that bankrupt car company" or "GM? aren't they going out of business?".

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by SphyNxXx
From what Ive heard, GM does need to do something about blue collar wages. Don't they pay like $30/hour or something for the floor workers? The new Hyaundai plany here in Alabama pays around $14.xx hour starting off and you will get raises up to $20.xx/hour and a cost of living raise from there on. The workers here are very happy with that pay and people have flocked to get jobs there.


$20 an hr goes alot furthur where you live than in other parts of the country.


yes,im aware some people feel UAW workers are overpaid and thats a matter of opinion.



im 100% in favor of getting GMs expenses down and profits up but im also against people losing descent paying jobs.


both sides have to work together and i think theyre heading in the right direction.


as was stated going bankrupt isnt good for public perception.


i would want to be the CEO that was known for that happening either.

[steve442]

How come I dont see any of the union bashers commenting on the 2-tier wage consessione the UNION agreed to? Starting pay $14hr max out at $18, skilled $20-25hr, It has taken 50 yrs to get these consessions, and now they should just say take it all away.
Oh I see the, it is easier to whine about peoples current wages and benifits because I am a fucking whining baby because I dont have the same benifits, BOO-Fucking Who. Oh I have a Bachelor degree and no common sense so I should make more money then a blue collar guy.
What about the benifit consessions the union just negotiated, oh thats still not good enough, do you people think that if wages go to china levels you will see a benifit, NO. How is it the workers fault, the assembler, they put the cars together, they didnt design them, they had nothing to do with the poor quality supplier parts put on the cars, they have nothing to do with the poor dealer experiance, and they have nothing to do with the shit warrantys.
Never seen so much hate toword the American worker , as shown on this board, if someone might benifit more then some of the whiners on here then that is just not right. Fucked up is all I can say!

[dave1w41]

How come I dont see any of the union bashers commenting on the 2-tier wage consessione the UNION agreed to? Starting pay $14hr max out at $18, skilled $20-25hr, It has taken 50 yrs to get these consessions, and now they should just say take it all away.


Because that only affects empoloyees hired at Delphi and Visteon after the last negotiation. All total, probably 10 people between both companies. Clearly not enough.

[steve442]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Because that only affects empoloyees hired at Delphi and Visteon after the last negotiation. All total, probably 10 people between both companies. Clearly not enough.


I was thinking alittle higher number.

[steve442]

Originally posted by SphyNxXx
From what Ive heard, GM does need to do something about blue collar wages. Don't they pay like $30/hour or something for the floor workers? The new Hyaundai plany here in Alabama pays around $14.xx hour starting off and you will get raises up to $20.xx/hour and a cost of living raise from there on. The workers here are very happy with that pay and people have flocked to get jobs there.


Oh so your would say that Toyoda pays to much then?
Most assemblers and non skilled people a Gm, Ford, Chrysler, started out like this, non-skilled DO NOT MAKE $30 hr base wage period. 99% of the non skilled people were I work do not make over $25hr.
So since there wages are comparable to the Big three you do or dont have a issue with this, sounds like that would be a no, just because thet are not UAW.

this is the site where the info comes from:http://www.uawtmmk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

assemblyline dog



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 2

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I work on the assembly line at Toyota and the starting pay for a team member almost $17 and the top pay is $25.16 after our last raise. Before that is was $24.88 an hour. So I guess your boss is lying to you. It also takes new hires three years to reach that amount. That just started this year. GO UAW!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ULTIMTEORANGESS]

Originally posted by steve442
Oh so your would say that Toyoda pays to much then?
Most assemblers and non skilled people a Gm, Ford, Chrysler, started out like this, non-skilled DO NOT MAKE $30 hr base wage period. 99% of the non skilled people were I work do not make over $25hr.
So since there wages are comparable to the Big three you do or dont have a issue with this, sounds like that would be a no, just because thet are not UAW.

this is the site where the info comes from:http://www.uawtmmk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

assemblyline dog



Joined: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 2

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I work on the assembly line at Toyota and the starting pay for a team member almost $17 and the top pay is $25.16 after our last raise. Before that is was $24.88 an hour. So I guess your boss is lying to you. It also takes new hires three years to reach that amount. That just started this year. GO UAW!!!!!!!!!!!!



its ok to make that much if your non union i guess.


funny how workers at toyota have indirectly benefitted from UAW wages isnt it?



i really dont understand the hated of unions.


it seems unamerican to me.

[steve442]

http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/delphi/delphiuawcheck.jpg

A worker at a Delphi plant has his paycheck on display, to show all the people what he really makes, I am sure alot of people will still think this is a fake or something.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by steve442
I was thinking alittle higher number.

Ok maybe 15 people.

[steve442]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Ok maybe 15 people.




:D

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by steve442
http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/delphi/delphiuawcheck.jpg

A worker at a Delphi plant has his paycheck on display, to show all the people what he really makes, I am sure alot of people will still think this is a fake or something.

He makes $56,000 a year. You and I both know there are people making a lot more than that. He just is not fortunate enough to have a job like janitor where he can abuse overtime like it's going out of style. When I go into work on Saturday, (which I get paid $0.000 to do) the janitor is there sitting in a chair earning 1.5x his regular pay. That's abuse, no two ways about it.

[steve442]

Originally posted by dave1w41
He makes $56,000 a year. You and I both know there are people making a lot more than that. He just is not fortunate enough to have a job like janitor where he can abuse overtime like it's going out of style. When I go into work on Saturday, (which I get paid $0.000 to do) the janitor is there sitting in a chair earning 1.5x his regular pay. That's abuse, no two ways about it.



And you have done that how many times---0
Maybe the janitor is, was, on break, they do get them, maybe the place was so dirty he had to sit down from working so hard.
Your telling me your working from the time you walk in the door, until you walk out, :bs:
I know the janitors where I work get a shite load of OT due to the fact so many retired, and you should check, where I am at a outside contractor does the non plant cleaning, and they suck too from what the white collar guys tell me.

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by steve442
And you have done that how many times---0
Maybe the janitor is, was, on break, they do get them, maybe the place was so dirty he had to sit down from working so hard.
Your telling me your working from the time you walk in the door, until you walk out, :bs:
I know the janitors where I work get a shite load of OT due to the fact so many retired, and you should check, where I am at a outside contractor does the non plant cleaning, and they suck too from what the white collar guys tell me.

So if I go in for four hours and he does not move in four hours, he's just sitting watching TV, listening to the radio, or reading a magazine, he's on break? I don't think sooo. In my building there is one janitor per "section" (about 200 people) and he no longer has to clean bathrooms or the coffee rooms because he was doing such a bad job they got some other guy to do them and that is all that other guy does. At least now when you sit down on the toilet and reach for some paper it is there. Before, you had to check because the guy would only check them about once a week. He empties about 100 trash cans a day (half the total volume) and "dusts" about once a month (and that dusting just started after his last trip to rehab). I was shocked to see him dusting this past week, I could hardly believe my eyes. He also does not have responsibilty for the food waste containers, only office waste nothing food or bathroom related. So they have a guy doing the food cans, a guy doing the bathrooms and coffee room, and this guy does dust and office trashcans along with moving the recycle bins to the designated pickup area where another guy gathers them weekly. And then he comes in on saturday?

Every bit of that needs to be contracted.

[steve442]

From a friend of mine,,,,



Rick Wagoner and Rick Wagoner only is responsible for:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *GM's gross mismanagement
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *High warranty costs
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Failed incentive programs.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Failed product programs (Aztek, SSR, etc.)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Failure to have just about every vehicle GM makes
get_recommended "Buy" status from Consumer Reports.

*Annual loss of market share- Mr. Wagoner's job, since he
does not know it, is to constantly increase market share
in the U.S.

_Mr. Wagoner became President and Chief Operating Officer of GM in 1998. Mr. Wagoner became President and Chief Executive
Officer of GM in June of 2000._ It is fair to state he has had a major say in GM for two years, and absolute control of everything in GM for almost five years.
Apparently Mr. Wagoner feels that market share is not as important as how Wall Street views GM and Mr. Gettelfinger feels that organizing and protecting the Strike Fund is more important than GM market share._ Do not forget the biggest failed joint program in Labor's history in the U.S., the
UAW-GM Quality Network, has been around since 1986._ Market share is the solution to every problem/issue the UAW and GM have!

_ _ _ _
The reality is that market share from 1998 (29.1%) through 2004 (26.7%) has dropped every year._ If GM's Board of Directors is going to pay Mr. Wagoner to lose market share, as they have, then that is what he will do._ What really scares, is Mr. Wagoner telling the press "The board is fully informed on all of our strategies and on that basis, supportive."
"We're going to ultimately be judged on our business results."_ He has caused more recalls and warranty cost than in time memorable - $9.13 billion in 2004._ How much was health care in 2004?_ Oh yes, $5.1 billion and that included management people, not just UAW members._ He has just plain given money away; Fiat $2.1 billion dollars._ More money than any
other CEO of GM who comes to mind.

Since Mr. Wagoner has decided to make a presentation on April 14, 2005, to the Big 4, maybe he would like to tell the truth about GM's reality._ Too bad no one in the UAW is asking him to tell the truth.

_ _ _ _ What truth?_ This truth:
__________________________________________________________
U.S._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ 2003_ _ _ _ __ 2004_ _ _ _ _ 2005_ _ _ __
Saturn

Market share
Vehicles Produced
Vehicles sold
Warranty costs
Recall costs

Total capacity
Hourly employment
Hourly employment
Payroll

Health care cost, UAW only

[Please fill in the missing data Mr. Wagoner._ After all, it is your data.
__________________________________________________________

This is the reality._ The UAW and its members need to determine if
UAW workers of GM need to sacrifice again, less than half way through the 2003 contract._ To sacrifice for management's, in particular Mr. Wagoner's,inability to manage.

But let us be perfectly clear, the UAW workers of GM should not
even be asked to consider, not even be allowed to participate in or authorize anyone on their behalf to offer up any sacrifice to Mr. Wagoner unless Mr. Wagoner meets these requirements:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Stops building vehicles for customers who do not exist.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Stops producing vehicles that do not sell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Brings capacity (fixed costs) in line with market share.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Reduces recalls by 75% (This would provide GM with over 6 billions dollars.)._ How much is GM's hourly & salary health
care cost for 2005?_ Oh yes, $5.6 billion.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *Eliminate warranty costs.
To summarize, increase market share, Mr. Wagoner, and remove
insecurity from the lives of all GM employees.

None of this has anything to do with the UAW contract._ If you do
not believe that, read this:

Paragraph 8:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "(8)_ The right to hire; promote; discharge or discipline
for cause; and maintain discipline and efficiency of employees, is the sole responsibility of the Corporation except that Union members shall not be discriminated against as such._ In addition, the products to be manufactured, the location of the plants, the schedules of production, the methods, processes and means of manufacturing are solely exclusively the responsibility of the Corporation."
_ _ _ _ [UAW/GM National Agreement, page 13.]

If you suffer the delusion that jointness is the answer and believe
statements in the newspapers like "People like Ron Gettelfinger and Dick Shoemaker have been good about discussing issues, but these are tough issues by nature," then you do not understand or have read Paragraph 8 of the GM agreement._ It is not necessary that the rank and file be convinced about "how much financial difficulty GM is in."_ The rank and file see it
every day as they struggle with mismanagement on the shop floor._ That only exists because Mr. Wagoner provides for it._

There is no factual basis or arguable reason for the UAW or its
members to continue to subsidize the gross mismanagement of Mr. Wagoner._
Someone once said "Lead, follow or get out of the way."_ Mr. Wagoner's current position does not give him the option to follow!_ So what is it to be Mr. Wagoner, lead or get out of the way?_ The option of taking concessions from the UAW workers through its union to pay for your incompetence just is not there.
__________________________________________________