Gm seems to keep shooting themselves in the foot.

[Quadcammer]

first the pension and health care benefit issues, uaw concerns, now the accounting issues.

Anybody else think it would be a good idea for them to file chapter 13, lose some of their wage and legacy costs, and majorly slim down their product line to produce fewer cars that will sell well and not compete with each other.

I think going to just chevrolet and Cadillac would be a good move.

That would allow them to have dual products with different natures on the same platforms to reduce costs and broaden appeal, eg. Lexus/toyota, honda/acura, nissan/infiniti, etc.

pontiac could be consolidated into chevy, and buick could be split between chevy and caddy depending on the model.


any thoughts?

[Lil Mac]

no

[dave1w41]

Yeah, that would be a mistake. Just what they need to do, have to give $2 million to each of 2000 dealers that would have to close and then sell 40% less product for it.

They have already combined channels. Chevrolet , Hummer, Saturn, and Cadillac are stand-alone brands and theoretically Pontiac, Buick, and GMC are to be another channel that together make up a full "line". This way; they don't have to close dealers and pay them off to the tune of hundreds of millions that they don't have nor do that actually have to force their own market share to be cut in half.

[ill deuce]

i know that GMC is their oldest division but what is their purpose exactly.?a more upscale truck line?is that really worth marketing a whole division over?

buick-redundant
saturn-redundant
GMC-redundant
hummer-a whole division for 3(mostly 2) vehicles?

they need chevy,cadillac,and pontiac

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by ill deuce
i know that GMC is their oldest division but what is their purpose exactly.?a more upscale truck line?is that really worth marketing a whole division over?

they need chevy,cadillac,and pontiac


buick-redundant = Maybe
saturn-redundant = Highest owner loyalty of any brand in the automotive industry, not likely to be redundant.
GMC-redundant = with 5% gains in individual brand market share in each of the last 5 years, GMC has been very successful.
hummer-a whole division for 3(mostly 2) vehicles? = The most phenominal growth of a single marketing division of any automotive company in the last 5 years...

So you would take two of GM's growing divisions and their division that has the highest owner loyalty in the industry and get rid of them? I see.....
If any divisions were to be up for discussion they would be Pontiac and Buick. Two divisions that have had nothing but shrinkage of share for the last 5 years. With Pontiac's new products like the G6, Torrent, and Solstice, would getting rid of Pontiac be really smart?

[ill deuce]

Originally posted by dave1w41
saturn-redundant = Highest owner loyalty of any brand in the automotive industry, not likely to be redundant.
GMC-redundant = with 5% gains in individual brand market share in each of the last 5 years, GMC has been very successful.
hummer-a whole division for 3(mostly 2) vehicles? = The most phenominal growth of a single marketing division of any automotive company in the last 5 years... bring saturn under the chevy umbrella like they did geo

gmc-profit or not,its the exact same line-up as chevy,you can switch badges and be no different

hummer,again bring them under the chevy umbrella,they mostly are chevy parts anyway.its not really a wise move to pin opes of profitablity on giant SUVs.i could see hummer staying but its only gonna be a niche brand anyway

bottom line is that GM has too many overlapping brands

ford or dodge doesn't need to sell 2 nearly indentical brands of trucks,honda doesn't have to sell reskinned civics

[dave1w41]

ford or dodge doesn't need to sell 2 nearly indentical brands of trucks,honda doesn't have to sell reskinned civics


Ford Expedition = Lincoln Navigator
Ford Explorer = Mercury Mountaneer, Lincoln Aviator,
Ford Excape = Mercury Mariner, Mazda Tribute

Civic = Acura RSX
Honda Pilot = Acura MDX

need I go on. all car companies do this.

GM has more brands because they are still bigger than either Ford or Honda. Keep in mind, every dealer that GM has to close costs about $2,000,000 in cash to make go away.

If any brands can be considered superfluous, GMC isn't one of them. Buick and Pontiac would definitely go first.

its not really a wise move to pin opes of profitablity on giant SUVs.

That is a common misconception about GM. That all they sell are trucks. Well, GM has more car models that get over 30mpg on the highway than any other car company in the US. GM has trucks because the market was and still is 48-52% Full size trucks and SUVs.

[ill deuce]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Ford Expedition = Lincoln Navigator
Ford Explorer = Mercury Mountaneer, Lincoln Aviator,
Ford Excape = Mercury Mariner, Mazda Tribute those brands sell other vehicles too,GMCs are clones basically

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by ill deuce
those brands sell other vehicles too,GMCs are clones basically

Which is why GMC's smaller lineup is always paired up with another Divison. There are no dealers that sell just GMC. 95% of them sell GMC/Pontiac/Buick. They are no more or less a clone than Honda putting an Acura Badge on a Pilot. In the case of GMC; instead of an Acura dealer you have a GMC/Pontiac/Buick dealer. It is just a different way of getting a similar mix of vehicles on a lot. GM really has to be careful about stripping Divisions. That is a very ugly process that has many more negatives than positives. Ask anyone at Chrysler if they think that getting rid of Plymouth was a good idea. Ask anyone at GM if they think getting rid of Oldsmobile was positive for GM. It was very costly and it reeked to the press/media of retreat and failure.

To do what you are suggesting would cost four billion dollars because GM would have to close 2000 dealerships at a cost of $2,000,000 per store. For that money, GM could develop four new platforms.

[ill deuce]

Originally posted by dave1w41
Which is why GMC's smaller lineup is always paired up with another Divison. There are no dealers that sell just GMC. 95% of them sell GMC/Pontiac/Buick. They are no more or less a clone than Honda putting an Acura Badge on a Pilot. In the case of GMC; instead of an Acura dealer you have a GMC/Pontiac/Buick dealer. It is just a different way of getting a similar mix of vehicles on a lot. GM really has to be careful about stripping Divisions. That is a very ugly process that has many more negatives than positives. Ask anyone at Chrysler if they think that getting rid of Plymouth was a good idea. Ask anyone at GM if they think getting rid of Oldsmobile was positive for GM. It was very costly and it reeked to the press/media of retreat and failure.

To do what you are suggesting would cost four billion dollars because GM would have to close 2000 dealerships at a cost of $2,000,000 per store. For that money, GM could develop four new platforms. u understand that put when you sell nearly indentical vehicles........

atleast honda tries to tart-up the acuras

olds was always very similar to buick and plymouth was nearly indentical to dodge

its nothing wrong with cross platforming if you make signifiant changes to a vehicle,ie the escalade

[dave1w41]

Originally posted by ill deuce
u understand that put when you sell nearly indentical vehicles........

atleast honda tries to tart-up the acuras



You need to go to a GMC dealer and then go to a Chevrolet dealer and take a good long look at the products. They are no closer to "clones" than the Pilot/MDX comparison.

There's nothing wrong with cross-platforming until someone points out another car company that does it at least as badly as GM and uses it as an example of how to do it "right". Fact is, all car companies do it and have been doing it since the 1950's.

[MapleRed]

Originally posted by ill deuce
i know that GMC is their oldest division but what is their purpose exactly.?a more upscale truck line?is that really worth marketing a whole division over?

buick-redundant
saturn-redundant
GMC-redundant
hummer-a whole division for 3(mostly 2) vehicles?

they need chevy,cadillac,and pontiac

Pontiac is just as redundant as Saturn or Buick. Probably Saturn/Buick would be the divisions to keep. Buick as near luxury and Saturn has some very nice products in the pipeline.

[ill deuce]

Originally posted by MapleRed
Pontiac is just as redundant as Saturn or Buick. Probably Saturn/Buick would be the divisions to keep. Buick as near luxury and Saturn has some very nice products in the pipeline. GM is steering pontiac in to sport/luxury scene

buick was once near luxury,but its not as big a of a market for the traditional "old man's" luxury car anymore.BMW type cars are in now

saturn has good vehicles but their segments are already covered by either chevy or pontiac

[MapleRed]

Originally posted by ill deuce
GM is steering pontiac in to sport/luxury scene

buick was once near luxury,but its not as big a of a market for the traditional "old man's" luxury car anymore.BMW type cars are in now

saturn has good vehicles but their segments are already covered by either chevy or pontiac

Saturn is being steered toward sport/luxury as well. Look at the upcoming Aura. It looks better than the G6 and Malibu BY FAR. Looks more respectable/upscale. The VUE has the Honda 3.5 V6 which makes it better than all the other GM mini SUV's. Supposedly the upcoming Ion and Vue look really nice.

With Pontiac you have an aging W-body which should be going away soon, the G6, which is okay, the Solstice is cool, so is the GTO. The Torrent is a carbon copy of the Nox, the Vue is better, IMO. The GTO is aging and might not even be replaced if the rumors are to be belived. :shrug:

Don't get me wrong, I would not want to see Pontiac go away. Too much history, there. But, arguably some of the upcoming Saturns are better cars.

[Checkmate]

Originally posted by Quadcammer
first the pension and health care benefit issues, uaw concerns, now the accounting issues.

Anybody else think it would be a good idea for them to file chapter 13, lose some of their wage and legacy costs, and majorly slim down their product line to produce fewer cars that will sell well and not compete with each other.


Nope, they would rather drag this out as long as possible and competely destroy the company. Either way the fat lady is getting ready to sing.

GM has needed a showroom full of exciting products, they haven't done it yet and there is no way it is going to happen now. They will fuck up the NAIAS by focusing on there blah restyle of the trucks and suvs. :rolleyes: