GM/UAW reach new deal...details at 9am [Archive]

MACGI 98 Z28

10-17-2005, 08:30 PM

Yah, look what they are paying all those white collar workers, engineers, and managment.

You mean the ones that are educated, skilled creators of the cars assembled by hourly workers? The ones that won't see a single penny in terms of a raise for the forseeable future...and will continue to pay whatever the company dictates as their portion of the health care and other benefits? Do you mean those workers?

Get off it. Hitting a punch card and getting paid by the hour does not make someone less deserving of taking a hit on pay and benefits than someone getting a salary.

It isn't about white collar vs. blue collar anyway. If some folks working hourly in plants don't like the ones sitting in offices for no other reason than they "get to sit at a desk all day", all they have to do is go compete with them in the market for a job and get hired to work in that part of the company. What!!!!??? you mean it is not as simple as it sounds?? Not as easy as just putting on an oxford shirt, buying an iron, some chakis and a pair loafers???? It should be pretty easy, those people don't wear ties and suits anymore. Must be something more to it than that...what could it be?

A lot (most) of the white collar workers are taking it up the ass already. The problem there is that GM has pretty much filled all the white-collar ass it can find. Even with that, GM falls way behind its competition in terms of fixed labor and benefits costs.

It is about what GM pays assembly workers and what assembly workers get paid to put cars together at Hundai, Toyota and Honda competitive non-union plants in the US. The days of gold-lined benefits for hourly workers are over. Unless GM and Ford get what they need in 2007, they are going to have a short list of choices:

1. Close plants and move plants to right-to-work states and out of the union midwest. If they are able to survive long enough to do that. If they are going to continue to pay like they are today for the short-term, after 2007 they are never going to agree to pay idled workers or to be stuck with plants they can't close.

2. Move assembly to Mexico or Asia, most likely Mexico.

3. Go bankrupt and restructure. This could have various results depending upon the UAW's level of participation in the bankruptcy. The result will be forced lower wages and benefits or replacement (if UAW members strike the bankrupt company).

The union's best bet is to bite the bullet, take major concessions and try to get deals that will force GM to keep plants in the US operating and paying/employing workers. Doubtful GM and Ford will be able to afford to give both current wages AND such guarantees.

If you can think of any other reasonable choices that GM may have, feel free to post em' up. Don't say "cut the salaries of top executives" The top executives at GM are well paid. The top five guys are Wagoner, Devine, Lutz, Gottschalk and Cowger. Combined total compensation (salary and stock) for these five guys totals about $35 million dollars. Compared to most top executives, this really is not that much, but that aside...even if they said that they would each take $1 per year until the company was profitable, their salaries would NEVER be able to account for the BILLIONS that GM needs to right itself. Even if you cut 100% the salaries of the top 100 executives, assuming that their combined total compensation was realistically something in the $200 million range per year, you are only 20% of the way to 1 Billion dollars. GM needs tens of billions and simply will not find anymore in the ranks of the white-collar work force.

It sounds nice on the plant floor and in union propoganda, but it really won't work. It won't even come close to working. It isn't about things just evening out and the company not actually losing money anymore, the company actually has to have PROFITS in order to continue to exist. If you don't think profits give a company power and respect, have another look at Toyota, the company with $300+billion IN THE BANK and GM with about $30 Billion in liquid assets and $140+billion in legacy costs and liabilities.

Having a contract with a company means that the hourly worker is collectively tied to the company, sharing responsibility with its management for the company's ultimate success or failure in the competitive marketplace. If that success or failure depends on the union performing its role as a partner in the success or failure of the company and if the hourly labor force is unwilling to participate, the company will eventually be unable to keep the lights on. If the company goes belly-up, those engineers and other white collar workers in the middle of it, the citizens of Michigan that will lose jobs, and the children of unemployed parents in all these groups will have the UAW and management to blame for running the company into the ground.

Just think, Steve Miller will be just about done at Delphi a bit before the 2007 contract negotiations. GM's or Ford's sharholders may want to give ol' Steve a shot at "fixing" GM or Ford instead of their current management teams.

ULTIMTEORANGESS

10-18-2005, 01:58 AM

both sides have to work together to work it out but if you dont think bad upper mngt decisions for decades put GM where it is now youre kidding yourself.

they can cut their labor costs to nothing and itll only delay their demise.

they need to fix their image alot of people have about domestic cars and stop worrying about whos fault it is why it happened.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-18-2005, 04:19 AM

both sides have to work together to work it out but if you dont think bad upper mngt decisions for decades put GM where it is now youre kidding yourself.

They are responsible for inking contracts with labor that they knew or should have known would eventually be too heavy to bear. They are responsible for the cars being engineered more by arrogance than real quality. That is turning around a lot now, but building a quality car is the 2nd component to the ultimate survival of the company.

they can cut their labor costs to nothing and itll only delay their demise.

The trading environment has changed dramatically in recent years. Korean (very good ones) cars are coming into this market with extremely competitive prices, Chinese-made auto parts are being shipped here. Both are built by labor and contain materials costing next to nothing or significantly less than ours and their quality is getting better every day. Asking a company to compete long-term against that, pay very generous wages and carry legacy costs that EXCEED the value of the entire company on paper simply isn't workable.

they need to fix their image alot of people have about domestic cars and stop worrying about whos fault it is why it happened.

They do and they are. Comparing the latest offerings of GM and Ford against what they were offering only a few years ago tells a story of dramatic change. The entire Cadillac lineup, G6, 06 Impala, New Malibu, the HHR, Colorado, Canyon, Equinox, Trailblazer/Envoy/Ranier all show dramatic improvements in interior quality and refinement.

It should be noted that CUSTOMERS also need to take a look at the big picture and admit that buying a foreign car may actually do what some people say it does...damage our country and kill off our manufacturing base. Nobody should accept a poor product out of simple patriotism. However, saying you are not even going to consider buying an American car out of nothing more than spite because you had bad experience with one ten years ago is bullshit. If an individual truly cares about this country, they will at least consider a product made by an American company built by an American worker first. Anyone that thinks buying a US made Toyota or Honda has positive implications beyond the workers and mostly Japanese suppliers is fooling themselves. Ultimately profits derived from US operations are of no benefit to the US, they go directly back to Japan. Even US made Toyotas, Hondas etc still have large amounts of foreign content.

steve442

10-18-2005, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
both sides have to work together to work it out but if you dont think bad upper mngt decisions for decades put GM where it is now youre kidding yourself.

they can cut their labor costs to nothing and itll only delay their demise.

they need to fix their image alot of people have about domestic cars and stop worrying about whos fault it is why it happened.

Thank you, well said!!!!!

steve442

10-18-2005, 08:38 AM

You mean the ones that are educated, skilled creators of the cars assembled by hourly workers? The ones that won't see a single penny in terms of a raise for the forseeable future...and will continue to pay whatever the company dictates as their portion of the health care and other benefits? Do you mean those workers?

Just like I thought, well there are alot of very educated people on the plant floor, you know my buddy Rob that works at Chrysler?
he has more schooling then you, and is skilled trades like me, he doesnt work in a office and doesnt want to until he has no other choice, you dont have a union to protect your pay or negotiate it, etc, thats to bad, I know you dont need them! But if you were in a union and contract time come up, and they say your getting a 6% raise over 4yrs, a signing bonus, and a small amount of out of pocket medical costs, you would say NO, I dont want a raise, I want to pay all my benifits and stuff the signing bonus, Ya, ok. Maybe somewere down the line they should of said production people will max out at $18-$20 hr, yrs ago, why didnt they?
See all these supossed high paid, educated people running the company, that are so well educated, they agreed to it, dont you get that! there was not a gun to there head for the last 40yrs, or at the last contract, I havent had a raise other then cola in 3yrs, I pay more out of pocket now but that still isnt good enough, untill I am paying more in medical, my wages are cut , pension is gone, then you might be happy, sounds sadistic to me to wish ill will on so many people.
You just hate unions and thats to bad because they have done good for alot of people, including you!

steve442

10-18-2005, 08:42 AM

Five myths about today’s auto industry

Is the unionized American auto industry dead?

There are some who claim Detroit automakers are stuck in old ways of doing business and unable to compete with their more flexible Asian and European competitors.

It’s true that today’s auto companies and autoworkers face more challenges than ever. But much of what is said about the auto industry doesn’t square with the reality of what’s being done inside today’s auto factories.

For one thing, several popular vehicles that carry foreign nameplates are actually built here in the U.S. by UAW members, working with the same union contracts that supposedly make auto plants “uncompetitive.” Our members now build vehicles not only for Detroit-based automakers, but also for Isuzu, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Volvo Trucks.

Some other common misconceptions:

Nobody builds auto plants in Michigan anymore. All the new factories are down South.
That would be news to GM, which just spent $1.5 billion on assembly operations in Lansing; to Ford, which spent $2 billion to rebuild the Rouge complex in Dearborn; and to DaimlerChrysler, which partnered with Hyundai and Mitsubishi to build a new $700 million engine complex in Dundee.

Packed with the latest technology and powered by ultra-modern conveyors, these facilities are flexible enough to produce multiple vehicle and engine models – and ergonomically designed to prevent workplace hazards and injuries.

The Big Three are going broke because their labor costs are too high.
UAW members are proud of the value we produce for employers: $463,000 per worker in a typical auto assembly plant, according to output-per-worker calculations from the Annual Survey of Manufacturers by the U.S. Bureau of the Census.

Thanks to this extraordinary productivity, the average auto assembly worker produces far more than he or she gets paid, by a margin of hundreds of thousands of dollars per worker. This remains true even when overtime, health care, pensions and other labor costs are included.

When it comes to quality, the Big Three are still way behind their competitors.
Not according to J.D. Power’s 2005 Initial Quality Study. This influential report found that the top three quality plants in North and South America are all unionized GM facilities – two in Canada and one in the United States. GM produced the top-quality performer in five vehicle segments, including the mid-size and full-size car segments; Ford was a winner in two product categories.

UAW members recognize the link between quality and productivity and job security, and we are working every day in every way to ensure that we make a difference when it comes to quality. The customers who purchase the products we build deserve no less. The quality measurement gap used throughout the industry has narrowed to a small margin, and our members are proud of that. But, until we are the very best, it will not be good enough.

Detroit builds nothing but gas guzzlers.
UAW members build the hybrid Ford Escape, the hybrid Mercury Mariner, and light hybrid versions of the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra. Other models are scheduled to come on line in 2007, and Ford recently announced it will produce 250,000 hybrids by 2010.

The Big Three are also using new fuel-saving technologies – like diesel powertrains, cylinder deactivation, continuously variable transmissions and lightweight materials – which can cut fuel consumption by 20 percent or more. These innovations aren’t visible to most consumers or the media. But they’re being installed on high-volume products like the Ford Explorer, the Jeep Cherokee and the Chevy Malibu, which sell hundreds of thousands of units per year. Even a small improvement in fuel economy on that many cars can make a big difference for America’s energy supply.

In a global industry, with cars coming from all over, it doesn’t make any difference what car I buy.
According to the Automotive Trade Policy Council, DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors accounted for 85 percent of the total investment in the U.S. auto industry between 1980 and 2002, a total of $176 billion invested in U.S. communities. These three companies alone purchase 80 percent of the auto parts now produced in the United States.

Big Three investment and purchasing supports millions of U.S. workers, retirees and their dependents. Yet the U.S. remains the most open automotive market in the world. Forty percent of vehicles sold in the U.S. have foreign nameplates, compared to 22 percent in the Europe, 5 percent in Japan, and just 2 percent in Korea.

Additionally, the Big Three are faced with free trade agreements that allow unfair trade practices like currency manipulation which give some foreign automakers an artificial advantage. These are not complaints – just facts.

It does matter and you will find union-made vehicles in every segment and in every price range, from fuel-sipping small compacts to family-size minivans. The auto industry can have a strong future in Michigan – if we all work together to make it happen.

steve442

10-18-2005, 09:01 AM

MACGI 98 Z28, I am sure this still isnt good enough for you!!!

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers reached a tentative agreement early today to reduce GM's health-care costs significantly while maintaining high quality health-care benefits for its hourly employees and retirees in the United States.

The tentative agreement, subject to finalized language and UAW-GM member ratification, is projected to reduce GM's retiree health-care (OPEB) liabilities by about $15 billion, or 25 percent of the company's hourly health-care liability, and cut GM's annual employee health-care expense by about $3 billion on a pre-tax basis. Cash savings are estimated to be about $1 billion a year.

The tentative agreement also includes contributions to a new independent Defined Contribution Voluntary Employee Benefit Association (VEBA) that will be used to mitigate the impact of reduced GM health-care coverage on individual hourly retirees. The new independent VEBA will be partially funded by GM contributions of $1 billion in each of three years – currently expected to be 2006, 2007 and 2011. Additional modest funding opportunities are under discussion, contingent on GM's improved financial performance.

Wagoner praised the UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and Vice President Dick Shoemaker for their leadership and hard work in coming to today's agreement.

"These negotiations were done in a positive, cooperative, problem-solving spirit," Wagoner said in remarks to employees at GM's global headquarters in Detroit . "While it may have taken some time to reach this cooperative solution, I think it was time well-spent."

Specific details regarding modifications to the health-care plan will be shared with affected employees and retirees soon. Wagoner said the modified plan will continue to provide high quality health care for GM's more than 750,000 U.S. hourly employees and dependents, retirees and surviving spouses.

Additionally, GM and the UAW have agreed to continue to look at other options to further reduce health-care expenses and to improve other areas of competitiveness.

"GM and the UAW have renewed our joint commitment to work together on a broad scale to continue to reduce the cost and improve the quality of health care," Wagoner said. "We continue to be concerned that this issue is of great importance for the future of overall U.S. competitiveness. We would welcome a more proactive role from elected officials at the national and state levels in broad-based strategies to address the U.S. health-care crisis."

Other Cost Reductions

GM is committed to 100 percent or more capacity utilization of its plants by 2008, to further reduce structural costs. This means the company will need to close additional assembly and component plants and reduce its manufacturing employment levels by 25,000 or more jobs. This would come on top of the 1 million-unit capacity reduction that has been achieved over the past three years.

"Over the past four months, we have done a lot of detailed work on this, and have at this point a reasonably clear line of sight on our overall manufacturing restructuring plan," Wagoner said. "Our next steps will be to work this plan in detail with the affected unions. We are planning to announce further details on this manufacturing restructuring by the end of this year.

Wagoner acknowledged that these difficult decisions will have an impact on many GM employees.

"We will do our best to minimize this impact on each of you and your families," he told employees. "We hope you will understand that, with these difficult actions, we will help to ensure a viable and growing GM for the future."

With all the cost-reduction initiatives in place, GM expects to reduce its structural cost by a $5 billion run rate by the end of 2006. The 2006 full-year impact depends on timing of approvals of the health-care changes.

"While this sounds like a large number, we recognize that it only goes part of the way we need to go to put GM North America in the fully competitive position that is necessary to maintain and enhance our future viability and growth. This is a very big step that we will build on as we go forward."

In addition, GM is targeting a $2 billion gross reduction in material costs in 2006, despite higher commodity prices and troubled supplier situations, yielding a net reduction of $1 billion after including the cost of significant product enhancements.

These estimates exclude any possible impact from Delphi 's Chapter 11 reorganization.

Two major opportunities to reduce material costs are optimizing GM's sourcing footprint with the most competitive supplier sources, and leveraging the globalization of GM's product development, Wagoner said.

ULTIMTEORANGESS

10-18-2005, 11:55 AM

so much for the UAW being so called and nazis and other BS.

thing is theyve always worked with GM to help them stay competitive.

its just hated for unions that cause people not to see the truth.

theres reasons they have to renew contracts every few yrs.the last one was based on how the co. was doing then and pay and benefits was based on that.

things are now different and so is the present agreement.

why people would want workers to lose their pension because of financial difficulties is very disturbing to me.

how bout you give up your pension to help your employer?

doesnt sound so great now does it?

MACGI 98 Z28

10-18-2005, 02:16 PM

MACGI 98 Z28, I am sure this still isnt good enough for you!!!

I don't really have as much of a stake in it as the people that work there, but I understand when a company is truly in crisis. GM defines that in the financial sense that if something drastic is not done, in 5-10 years it will cease to exist in a manner similar to Delphi. Ford is on the same track.

See this quote from Wagoner...he finally seems to be getting it himself:

"While this sounds like a large number, we recognize that it only goes part of the way we need to go to put GM North America in the fully competitive position that is necessary to maintain and enhance our future viability and growth. This is a very big step that we will build on as we go forward."

To me that plainly says that more pain is on the horizon...unfortunately for this kind of pain, no painkiller is available.

Just like I thought, well there are alot of very educated people on the plant floor, you know my buddy Rob that works at Chrysler?
he has more schooling then you, and is skilled trades like me, he doesnt work in a office and doesnt want to until he has no other choice, you dont have a union to protect your pay or negotiate it, etc, thats to bad, I know you dont need them! But if you were in a union and contract time come up, and they say your getting a 6% raise over 4yrs, a signing bonus, and a small amount of out of pocket medical costs, you would say NO, I dont want a raise, I want to pay all my benifits and stuff the signing bonus, Ya, ok. Maybe somewere down the line they should of said production people will max out at $18-$20 hr, yrs ago, why didnt they?
See all these supossed high paid, educated people running the company, that are so well educated, they agreed to it, dont you get that! there was not a gun to there head for the last 40yrs, or at the last contract, I havent had a raise other then cola in 3yrs, I pay more out of pocket now but that still isnt good enough, untill I am paying more in medical, my wages are cut , pension is gone, then you might be happy, sounds sadistic to me to wish ill will on so many people.
You just hate unions and thats to bad because they have done good for alot of people, including you!

Management is responsible for not holding the line on contracts when they should have. Just because nobody had a gun to someone's head and past management made mistakes and failed to consider the competitive environment potential in the future does not change the fact that it is here and that failure to respond to it both in terms of product and cost to produce that product will FINISH GM and Ford. UAW management as the executives in control of the labor resource have a DUTY to be completely up-front with the membership as to what the stakes are. As executives, similar to those at GM, they are perfectly capable of understanding the situation that GM is in. If union members cannot be convinced or continue to think that GM is a bottomless pit that can continue to lose $1Billion+ a quarter in its North American operations without running into serious problems, they are suffering from some kind of delusion. How GM and Ford GOT here really is water under the bridge. How to fix the problems are the immediate crisis whose failure to reach a solution is corporate death.

FWIW our company is limited to a 4% annual average pay increase. That means that when I evaluate my staff, the average of those increases cannot equal more than 4% of my current salary budget. By the way, our health care costs just went up another 10% starting next year.

The difference is that paying a 30% chunk of medical, getting a 3 or 4% raise and not having any pension at all is pretty much par for the course. Most companies don't even have pensions anymore. GM has no pensions for white-collar workers hired after something like 1995. I am one of the few people working for a company that does have a pension, but in order to PROTECT myself, I also have other retirement investments. I do not count on my pension to be there. It probably will be however, because it is not chronically underfunded as is common with manufacturing companies.

I don't wish ill on people at all, but I understand how companies work and that if what it really takes to stop flushing billions down the toilet and keep some jobs here is pain for the little guy, they simply have to bear it. It isn't about me WANTING to see people hurt. It is about GM getting healthy and existing as a corporate entity for another 50 years...if they just go belly-up with labor refusing to play a complete role in turning the company around, it will trash our state, damage our nation and cause hundreds of thousands of people to be out of work. Plainly, I would rather see Americans work for less for 20 years than see Mexicans get those jobs in 10 years.

As for unions doing me good, my company has never any union employees, so I don't know what unions have done for me. They may have helped increase the overall standard of living and benefits 30-40 years ago. However, during the past 15-20 years they have caused numerous American businesses to become uncompetitive and die swimming in red ink from fat contracts that companies eventually could not pay...only to be replaced by smaller (less employees/less benefits) and more efficient non-union companies and foreign competition. (steel, rubber, textiles)

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 03:08 PM

why people would want workers to lose their pension because of financial difficulties is very disturbing to me.

Nobody wants to see anyone lose a pension but sometimes you feel that if someone is so bullheaded that they won't take any responsiblity for their own future that they might just deserve it.

NHRATA01

10-18-2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by steve442
[B]
Just like I thought, well there are alot of very educated people on the plant floor, you know my buddy Rob that works at Chrysler?
he has more schooling then you, and is skilled trades like me, he doesnt work in a office and doesnt want to until he has no other choice,

Well no offense, but thats pretty foolish. If he's got the education to move to the white collar job but sticks to MFG, its just a stupid decision. He's making less money and essentially wasted money on tuition. That's no one's fault but his own. I work as an engineer in a mfg enviornment for a top 10 fortune 500 company too, so I have a little backgound in this area. Sure I could choose to forsake my education and run a 3 roll mill for 8 hours a day, and pull in $40k a year. It would be easy work, not require much effort beyond showing up and I can even collect overtime! But I guess someone who busts their ass through 4 years of engineering school, at $100k of cost to them, and then gets hired to a job with far more responsibility that at times requires many unpaid hours in the office deserves the same pay, right???

you dont have a union to protect your pay or negotiate it, etc, thats to bad, I know you dont need them!

Thats absolute crap! Guess who gets boned more when layoffs come? Not the untouchables in MFG, especially at a unionized plant.

The only bargaining chip the white collar worker has is his level of education and expertise, and to put himself in a postion of value to the company whereby his services are required and making himself an asset that can't be let go of. The union worker needs to do no such thing, since he'll have his union head go to bat for him. The white collar worker is on his own.

I havent had a raise other then cola in 3yrs, I pay more out of pocket now but that still isnt good enough, untill I am paying more in medical, my wages are cut , pension is gone, then you might be happy

I work with MFG guys who haven't had ANY raise in 4 years, that includes no COLA. Hell my raises haven't even been equal to COLA, about 3% a year, when cost of living is rising at 5-6% and greater in my area. GM UAW employees pay the least amount of out of pocket expenses for healthcare than anyone else in the nation. As for pension, I don't get one, only cash balance - and even that was taken away from new hires and replaced with 401k with fully matched (vs 50%) up to 6%. And IBM even switched alot of older employees from pension to cash balance.

I work with mill operators who pull in more than $60k a year with OT, and they still complain about not making enough! And I tell them take classes and get a degree if you want more. The brutal fact of the matter is that in today's world you can't have a stay at home wife and go work in the textile mill, and pull in enough money to buy a house, 2 cars and afford kids. In the words of Vincent in Collateral "Shit happens, gotta adapt, darwin, yi ching, whatever". MFG people do not want to do this, and instead would rather complain that they don't make enough and ask for raises, as opposed to improving their marketable skills like the rest of the white collar world has to do.

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:12 PM

Something I ran across.

54 Fitch Pl. S.E.
Grand Rapids, MI 49503

To the Editor of the Grand Rapids Press:

I have worked for Delphi for almost 27 years. First at the plant in Wyoming and presently at the plant in Coopersville. I have had the pleasure of working with many outstanding people, both hourly and salary, skilled and unskilled.
Both plants are well run, safe, and consistently profitable. Over the years we made a lot of money for GM and Delphi. The workers at Delphi, including the former GM-Delphi plant on Alpine, deserve better. So do the taxpayers.
Mr. Miller combines shameless arrogance with callous conceit when he dumps pension and health care obligations on taxpayers, and then promptly asks for a tax break. In better times he’d be tarred and feathered.
Miller’s favorite fantasy is how Delphi was victimized by “legacy costs”. But he doesn’t admit the total legacy package. In 1999 Delphi inherited tax free: products, patents, machinery, technology, property, and contracts with the largest automotive manufacturer in the world. Delphi was born like a rich man’s son — debt free and stocked high with entitlements. Like a prodigal son Miller expects someone else to clean up the mess and pay the price for a squandered legacy.
Delphi like so many other US corporations is run by overpaid, incompetent frauds. For the past fifteen years profits from North American operations were invested overseas while US plants were underfunded and undermined. The pirates of industry stole our legacy.
The court will now permit Delphi to renege on its pension and health care obligations while simultaneously reaping profit from investments overseas. Those investments are our legacy. Mr. Miller’s legacy will be foreclosed homes, broken families, and suicides.
I urge all Delphi workers, both hourly and salary, to treat one another with patience and respect. Your coworker is not the enemy. The enemy is the corporate state.

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 05:14 PM

Thats absolute crap! Guess who gets boned more when layoffs come? Not the untouchables in MFG, especially at a unionized plant.

The only bargaining chip the white collar worker has is his level of education and expertise, and to put himself in a postion of value to the company whereby his services are required and making himself an asset that can't be let go of. The union worker needs to do no such thing, since he'll have his union head go to bat for him. The white collar worker is on his own.

It goes without mentioning that in the case of GM, the white collar ranks have been cut over 50% since 1995. Much less in manufacturing.

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
It goes without mentioning that in the case of GM, the white collar ranks have been cut over 50% since 1995. Much less in manufacturing.

Then get a UNION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you ever think that they just had to many white collar people laying around. You work with some people that have over 30yrs!
See, it takes man power to assemble a vehicle, kinda hard to do it from behind a desk.

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 05:20 PM

I have worked for Delphi for almost 27 years. First at the plant in Wyoming and presently at the plant in Coopersville. I have had the pleasure of working with many outstanding people, both hourly and salary, skilled and unskilled.
Both plants are well run, safe, and consistently profitable. Over the years we made a lot of money for GM and Delphi. The workers at Delphi, including the former GM-Delphi plant on Alpine, deserve better. So do the taxpayers.
Mr. Miller combines shameless arrogance with callous conceit when he dumps pension and health care obligations on taxpayers, and then promptly asks for a tax break. In better times he’d be tarred and feathered.
Miller’s favorite fantasy is how Delphi was victimized by “legacy costs”. But he doesn’t admit the total legacy package. In 1999 Delphi inherited tax free: products, patents, machinery, technology, property, and contracts with the largest automotive manufacturer in the world. Delphi was born like a rich man’s son — debt free and stocked high with entitlements. Like a prodigal son Miller expects someone else to clean up the mess and pay the price for a squandered legacy.
Delphi like so many other US corporations is run by overpaid, incompetent frauds. For the past fifteen years profits from North American operations were invested overseas while US plants were underfunded and undermined. The pirates of industry stole our legacy.
The court will now permit Delphi to renege on its pension and health care obligations while simultaneously reaping profit from investments overseas. Those investments are our legacy. Mr. Miller’s legacy will be foreclosed homes, broken families, and suicides.
I urge all Delphi workers, both hourly and salary, to treat one another with patience and respect. Your coworker is not the enemy. The enemy is the corporate state.

That's great, not entirely accurate, true, or factual and the question I would have is; and? Steve Miller was not part of that incompetent "pirate" management, he has been hired by the board of Delphi to FIX IT. He's just telling the truth and the truth is painful. It isn't his job to punish the old leadership, if they did something illegal, the law will take care of that. His job is to fix Delphi's north american operations so that they are not in a position to financially ruin the entire corporation. As the head of their asian operations said: "We are the child and our mother has a tumor, that tumor is called the UAW."

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 05:23 PM

Then get a UNION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And risk getting cut by 100%?, no thanks.

See, it takes man power to assemble a vehicle, kinda hard to do it from behind a desk.

That's true but without engineers there would be no cars, no plants, no product, no designs, nothing. Everyone agrees that assembly is worth something but is it worth what GM is paying? I think the answer is clear.

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:34 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dave1w41
[B]And risk getting cut by 100%?, no thanks.

And you still could be cut!!!!

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:38 PM

"You cannot have an automobile economy on bicycle wages.” (Gettelfinger)

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 05:38 PM

And you still could be cut!!!!

:shrug:

Everyone risks being cut, this is a global business. A union can't protect anyone from the power of economics. I would prefer to be a small target rather than part of a group that has a track record of negotiating themselves out of work.

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
:shrug:

Everyone risks being cut, this is a global business. A union can't protect anyone from the power of economics. I would prefer to be a small target rather than part of a group that has a track record of negotiating themselves out of work.

Oh really show me the track record? Get to work on this while your on company time
:D

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 05:43 PM

Oh really show me the track record?

Flint
Detroit

Been to either of these formerly bustling cities of GM's industry?

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:45 PM

... if your workplace
is non-union . . . if you join a union
and have a contract
You are an "employee at will." Your employer can discipline or fire you at any time for any reason; you have no recourse. Discipline, up to and including discharge, is subject to a grievance procedure and binding arbitration, depending on the terms of your contract.
"Open door" policy means the employer will listen to you... and then do whatever he or she wants. Contract negotiations require both sides — labor and management — to listen, and reach reasonable compromises acceptable to both sides.
Employer determines wages, benefits and other terms and conditions of work. If you're not satisfied, your only option is to get another job. Wages, benefits and working conditions are negotiated. If you are not satisfied, you can work for changes during contract negotiations.
Wages, benefits and other terms and conditions can be changed by the employer at any time. Neither labor nor management can make unilateral changes to a signed contract. If modifications are necessary during the life of a contract, both sides must agree.
Hiring and promotion is up to the discretion of the employer. Hiring and promotion is covered by contract. Seniority and other factors can be written into the agreement.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-18-2005, 05:47 PM

Miller’s favorite fantasy is how Delphi was victimized by “legacy costs”. But he doesn’t admit the total legacy package. In 1999 Delphi inherited tax free: products, patents, machinery, technology, property, and contracts with the largest automotive manufacturer in the world. Delphi was born like a rich man’s son — debt free and stocked high with entitlements. Like a prodigal son Miller expects someone else to clean up the mess and pay the price for a squandered legacy.

From Steve Miller:

"They pursued the American dream, and globalization has swept over them," he said. "They are extremely angry, and they look at me. I understand it, and I forgive it."

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
Flint
Detroit

Been to either of these formerly bustling cities of GM's industry?

Yup, look at the names of the cities, remember who ran them into the ground, just being in either city is uncompetitive.

steve442

10-18-2005, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
From Steve Miller:

Yup, and the Battenburg administration ran it to the ground, not the union, and from what I hear there is going to be some prosecution of some of that administration.

Some of you people you included, need to walk thru a plant, not read about it, it is DEFINATLY a eye opener.
The waste is UNBELIVABLE!!!!

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:00 PM

The UAW — a Union of All Workers
The International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW) is one of the largest and most diverse unions in North America, with members in virtually every sector of the economy.

UAW-represented workplaces range from multinational corporations, small manufacturers and state and local governments to colleges and universities, hospitals and private non-profit organizations.

The UAW has approximately 710,000 active members and over 500,000 retired members in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico. Here is a profile of the UAW membership by sector:

Automotive: The UAW represents skilled trades and production workers at General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChrysler. In addition, the UAW represents several thousand salaried employees — including engineers, designers and draftsmen — at DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors.

Workers at new United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI), a GM-Toyota joint venture; and Mitsubishi Motor Manufacturing of America Inc. (MMMA) also belong to the UAW.

In addition, the union has a major presence in the automotive parts industry, including such firms as Delphi, Lear, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle, Thyssen Budd Automotive, and numerous tool-and-die firms and suppliers.

Aerospace and Defense: In the aerospace and defense industry, the UAW represents workers at such major firms as General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Honeywell, Raytheon, General Electric, Rolls-Royce Allison, Bell Helicopter, AM General (Humvee) and others.

Heavy Trucks: The UAW represents skilled trades and production workers at five leading manufacturers of heavy trucks: Freightliner, Mack, Navistar, Peterbilt and Volvo North America, as well as engineers, draftsmen designers and other salaried employees at Mack, Navistar and Volvo North America.

Farm and Heavy Equipment: The UAW represents workers at several of the world’s leading manufacturers of farm and heavy construction equipment, Deere & Co., Caterpillar and CNH Global.

Other Manufacturing: The UAW represents workers in a wide range of industries, including household appliances, brewing, lawn and garden equipment, tools and hardware, firearms, boats, modular housing, toys, musical instruments, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, food processing and writing instruments.

Among the well known consumer products made by UAW members are Kohler bathroom fixtures, Maytag appliances, Murray lawn mowers, Miller beers, Colt firearms, Master Loc locks, Revlon cosmetics, Land O' Lakes dairy products, Folger's coffee, Libby's and Crosse & Blackwell canned foods, Selmer and Yamaha musical instruments, Planter's nuts and snacks and Scheaffer pens.

Technical, Office and Professional (TOP): The UAW represents a large and growing number of technical, office and professional workers at manufacturing companies as well as in the public sector, health care, schools and universities, telecommunications and news media. The UAW's technical, office and professional members work in a wide range of occupations, including draftsmen, industrial designers, engineers, graphic designers and illustrators, computer specialists, health care professionals, social service workers, journalists and writers, curators and librarians, graduate teaching assistants and state and local government employees.

These include Michigan, Indiana and Kentucky state employees; service, clerical, technical and graduate student employees at more than 20 colleges and universities; artisans at Greenfield Village; the staffs of The Village Voice, Mother Jones, and The Stamford Advocate; technical and on-air staff of WDET, Detroit's public radio station; workers at the three Detroit casinos, staff lawyers of the Legal Services Corporation; more than 5,000 members of the National Writers Union; and more than 3,000 members of the Graphic Artists Guild.

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 06:01 PM

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
And all of that is true for about 99% of the working US population. My dad has probably had 12 jobs in the last 30 years, he has retirement assets of over $1.5m and lives in a $400,000 house. He has only made over $100,000/yr for about 5 of those 30 years and he does not make that much now. Unions have done nothing for him and he is no worse for it. His first job? A dockworker in the port in Detroit, he still has his Teamster's card. The port is long closed. He took the money from his job at the port and got a degree in Mechanical Engineering.

And that property that he got from your grandparents, that didnt help, what would you be writing if he didnt get or sell that property. He was lucky that developer came thru.:cool:

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 06:22 PM

And that property that he got from your grandparents, that didnt help, what would you be writing if he didnt get or sell that property. He was lucky that developer came thru.

He bought that property, it was not willed to him. He paid fair market value for it with his own money. It was his own foresight that it proved to be a good investment. He offered his brothers an opportunity to get in on it 1/3 each, they didn't and they missed out.

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
He bought that property, it was not willed to him. He paid fair market value for it with his own money. It was his own foresight that it proved to be a good investment. He offered his brothers an opportunity to get in on it 1/3 each, they didn't and they missed out.

Do you forget who you are writing too!!!
I remember what you guys told me:D

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:27 PM

The whole point of this thread shows the Uaw is willing to work with companies and they still get torn apart thru ignorance!!!

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dave1w41
[B]Unions have done nothing for him and he is no worse for it.

Oh they have!!!!

steve442

10-18-2005, 06:35 PM

UAW members have voted to ratify a new three-year labor agreement with Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Michigan.

Members from four UAW local unions voted on Saturday, Oct. 1 and Sunday Oct. 2 in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Southfield, and in other locations across the state.

The new agreement, which will expire in August 2008, includes a $4,000 signing bonus and three 3 percent wage increases, one in each year of the agreement.

And this must be why health care went up !

NHRATA01

10-18-2005, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by steve442

See, it takes man power to assemble a vehicle, kinda hard to do it from behind a desk.

Any man can be trained to assemble a vehicle - much of which BTW is done by robotic machines (yes I have been in a plant, GM Tarrytown man times prior to its demolition).

Not any man can do a clean sheet redesign of an engine and get it to meet power, durability, economy, emissions, and manufacturability targets.

Thus the engineer, being a more rare commodity deserves the better pay, no?

MFG guys don't see it that way. Lol I work with a guy who was annoyed that Lou Gerstner made so much as a CEO - he said "I work just as hard".

Like I said, people need to accept the fact the nation's economy has evolved, and you can't expect a cushy job on an assembly line. If you want to get paid more, get a degree. I don't bitch about doctors and lawyers making more than engineers. They go to school longer and work long hours. If I want more money, then I'll persue a doctorate and put in that work. Why MFG can't grasp this I don't understand.

And getting a continuing education has always been known to be a requirement to have a shot at a better income. Immigrants came to this country and slaved in mines and sweatshops to put their kids through school so they could have better jobs and a better life. Why do people not want to do this now? If anyone with greater than 10 years to retirement is looking to make his career in MFG he is making a big mistake.

In the 21st century American economy, if you want to live a middle class life, you're not going to do it through blue collar MFG.

dave1w41

10-18-2005, 06:43 PM

Do you forget who you are writing too!!!
I remember what you guys told me

Maybe you should pm me and refresh my memory or e-mail me but maybe it is your memory that needs correcting? He bought it at the price it was worth; is it his fault the value of that piece of property went up almost 10x in 10 years? So what if he was the only person in his family who could see that? He didn't get any help from the UAW in making his decision to buy it so it must be ill-gotten gains?

steve442

10-18-2005, 07:04 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NHRATA01
[B]Any man can be trained to assemble a vehicle - much of which BTW is done by robotic machines (yes I have been in a plant, GM Tarrytown man times prior to its demolition).

Not any man can do a clean sheet redesign of an engine and get it to meet power, durability, economy, emissions, and manufacturability targets.

Thus the engineer, being a more rare commodity deserves the better pay, no?

And you are right and in my opinion some of them deserve more, I never said all of the white collar do not deserve what they make, just like I have always said production workers should have a max wage, and skilled trades should follow the industry.

steve442

10-18-2005, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
Maybe you should pm me and refresh my memory or e-mail me but maybe it is your memory that needs correcting? He bought it at the price it was worth; is it his fault the value of that piece of property went up almost 10x in 10 years? So what if he was the only person in his family who could see that? He didn't get any help from the UAW in making his decision to buy it so it must be ill-gotten gains?

:rolleyes: :help:

judge smails

10-19-2005, 12:58 AM

Ive read all the doomsday predictions and I am sick to my stomach and a little frightened. I am sick from the people that are getting joy out of this and are wishing for the UAWs demise and the demise of auto workers. There are wonderful people working for the Big 3. Americans that show up before sunrise and leave after 12 hours of work. Americans that have families, small children, and middle class lives.

How anyone can be happy that an American institution is dying and people will be left with nothing is a real problem to me. There are a lot of people here and in the real world that would like me to lose everything I own and worked for. I am a auto worker. I am a father to a very young son. And I am a provider for my wife. I am a college educated man that went after the money at Ford and now I am regretting my mistake.

There are a lot more like me out there and if you are happy to see my industry going the way of steel, railroading, and the airlines, I hope you are ready to face a country that ties one in seven of its jobs to my field.

The one thing that I can say about wages is they may not be cut that much. The Jap 3 make alomost the same wage as a UAW worker. If GM cuts the rate to 10 bucks an hour, why would Toyota continue to pay a person double that. If they start to mess with wages on that side of the market, you see all those UAW haters in the south crying for help.

dave1w41

10-19-2005, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by judge smails
Ive read all the doomsday predictions and I am sick to my stomach and a little frightened. I am sick from the people that are getting joy out of this and are wishing for the UAWs demise and the demise of auto workers. There are wonderful people working for the Big 3. Americans that show up before sunrise and leave after 12 hours of work. Americans that have families, small children, and middle class lives.

How anyone can be happy that an American institution is dying and people will be left with nothing is a real problem to me. There are a lot of people here and in the real world that would like me to lose everything I own and worked for. I am a auto worker. I am a father to a very young son. And I am a provider for my wife. I am a college educated man that went after the money at Ford and now I am regretting my mistake.

There are a lot more like me out there and if you are happy to see my industry going the way of steel, railroading, and the airlines, I hope you are ready to face a country that ties one in seven of its jobs to my field.

The one thing that I can say about wages is they may not be cut that much. The Jap 3 make alomost the same wage as a UAW worker. If GM cuts the rate to 10 bucks an hour, why would Toyota continue to pay a person double that. If they start to mess with wages on that side of the market, you see all those UAW haters in the south crying for help.

I hope you aren't talking about me. I just hope the UAW can see the light before a lot of people have to pay with their jobs; along with the jobs of about 100,000 white collar Ford and GM workers in the US. Personally, I think the example that Miller used was specific to non-core jobs like janitors, lawn maintenance, painters, etc. A lot of jobs that could easily be contracted out for far less money. I think every UAW member is secretly or openly embarassed that there are some people who really don't deserve what they are being paid. It won't just affect those core companies either, it affects their suppliers with plants in the US. Probably to the tune of at least 2 million jobs.

judge smails

10-19-2005, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by dave1w41
I hope you aren't talking about me. I just hope the UAW can see the light before a lot of people have to pay with their jobs; along with the jobs of about 100,000 white collar Ford and GM workers in the US. Personally, I think the example that Miller used was specific to non-core jobs like janitors, lawn maintenance, painters, etc. A lot of jobs that could easily be contracted out for far less money. I think every UAW member is secretly or openly embarassed that there are some people who really don't deserve what they are being paid. It won't just affect those core companies either, it affects their suppliers with plants in the US. Probably to the tune of at least 2 million jobs.

No, not directed at you. This site is known to be a anti-union board. There have been many times where a poster has wished death to union workers.

ULTIMTEORANGESS

10-19-2005, 02:27 AM

this board is very anti union but most of the reasons are misinformed and ignorant sadly.

breaking of unions is no good for anyone.

fastolman

10-19-2005, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by ULTIMTEORANGESS
this board is very anti union but most of the reasons are misinformed and ignorant sadly.

breaking of unions is no good for anyone.

The board is very anti union because more and more people in general are anti union.

And yea I'm one of the people.

dave1w41

10-19-2005, 05:27 PM

And the Autoextremist weighs in......

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

The GM-UAW health care deal? It's just a momentary layover on the Oblivion Express.

Detroit. Sifting through the media reports on the GM-UAW health care deal, I noticed a few local journalists veered toward congratulating Rick Wagoner and Ron Gettelfinger for a job "well done" - as if waking up and smelling the coffee deserves some sort of medal. Well, the Autoextremist Prize Patrol isn't going to be stopping at Solidarity House or "The Tubes" anytime soon, because as significant as this tentative deal (it has yet to be ratified by the UAW's rank and file) on health care is, it is a mere blip on the radar screen of what really needs to be done - and it has only put a dent into the staggering problems facing GM and the rest of the domestic auto industry.

On the same day Rick Wagoner announced that an agreement had been made to reduce GM's massive health care burden by 25%, saving $1 billion a year, GM announced that it had lost $1.6 billion in the third quarter, which puts its operating loss at $3.8 billion for the first nine months of this year.

This simply cannot continue.

Wrestling with health care reforms is just one dimension to the problems facing GM and the rest of the domestic auto industry. GM, for instance, hasn't made money selling cars and trucks in the United States for years. Let's dwell on that statement for a minute, shall we? That means that GM, no matter how hard it tries - loses money, on average, on every single vehicle it builds. After gorging at the trough of incentive marketing for four solid years, Detroit has finally woken up to the fact that people simply won't even consider a domestic-built car without some sort of rebate. And with the built-in cost structures for Detroit so wildly of whack, the chances of the domestic manufacturers generating a sustainable profit going forward are beginning to look like two words - slim and none. GM, Ford and Chrysler can trim health care costs from now until 2007 (when the next UAW contract is up for negotiation), and it's not going to matter one bit, because the "Detroit Model" for how to go about making money manufacturing and selling cars and trucks is obsolete and irretrievably broken.

Detroit - and when I say Detroit I mean the domestic automakers and the UAW - has been operating in a vacuum for 35 years, refusing to acknowledge that the world around them has not only changed dramatically, but that global competition has radically altered the playing field. Entire nations now act on behalf of their home country auto companies to gain an advantage in the North American market, which is by far the most lucrative car market in the world. And Detroit is simply ill prepared to compete against that kind of competition given its woefully archaic structure. It doesn't help in the least that the U.S. government seems to have been neutered when it comes to dealing with trade imbalances, but that's another column.

Rick Wagoner is like the well-intentioned, genteel country doctor telling his patient (Ron Gettelfinger and the UAW) that things aren't looking good and that if we take these steps now you might survive a little longer and not be in too much pain. I call that managing the downward spiral, and it's the plan of treatment that Wagoner wholeheartedly believes in.

But if Rick Wagoner represents the kinder and gentler approach, Delphi Chairman Robert S. "Steve" Miller is the urban doctor with the point-blank, no bullshit style. He sits his patients down (Gettelfinger and the UAW) and hits them right between the eyes with the bad news: It's over, you're going to die soon, and there's nothing we can do to make it better. It would behoove you to get your affairs in order - now.

Gettelfinger has accused Miller of using "scare tactics" to make the UAW buckle, but every time Gettelfinger opens his mouth it's clear to me that he still doesn't get it and that he and his union brethren still believe that this is only a momentary "bad patch" for the domestic industry and that when things get straightened out everything will be just fine again. But all Miller is trying to do is to get Gettelfinger and Company to come to the realization that the union's classic standard operating procedure/mantra, which revolves around the concept of "entitlement," is over, period - and that UAW workers are overpaid compared to global industrial wage standards and are living in a dream world of outlandish expectations. Miller's quote to The Detroit News in an interview last week - "Paying $65 for someone mowing the lawn at one of our plants is just not going to cut it anywhere in industrial America for very long " - sent Solidarity House into a frenzy, but if any one statement succinctly put Detroit's dire predicament into perspective - it was that one.

And the accuracy of Miller's statement doesn't even begin to cover the absurdity of the "job banks" program, in which GM, Ford, Chrysler and Delphi agreed to a job security program with the UAW in the '80s that actually paid people not to work - in order to get the union to agree to be more productive and allow the companies to be more flexible in their production schedules and methods. There are 12,000 workers currently in the "job banks" programs. Talk about the quintessential definition of "obsolete."

The health care situation is just the tip of the iceberg. Detroit has an over capacity of everything associated with building and selling an automobile - workers, factories and dealers. And with each passing month, Detroit's share of the market barely treads water, before continuing its inexorable march downward. There is nothing about the way Detroit and the UAW currently go about their business that is sustainable. Not one thing. And that is Miller's emphatic point. Unless and until the model is blown up and intelligent minds are brought together to lay the groundwork for a realistically sustainable future, Detroit - as we know it - will wither away and die.

For all the platitudes being bandied about in some corners of the media for Rick Wagoner and Ron Gettelfinger about their "historic" health care agreement, it would have been much more significant if it had happened five years ago.

Now, it's only a momentary layover on the Oblivion Express.

Thanks for listening, see you next Wednesday.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-19-2005, 05:44 PM

Peter DeLorenzo...in a word WOW. :(

Sad but true.

steve442

10-19-2005, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by dave1w41
And the Autoextremist weighs in......

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

First, most of this losers comments are BULLSHIT, kinda like alot of the comments on here, and Gm has issues and I am glad I am not on there ship.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-19-2005, 07:32 PM

First most of this losers comments are BULLSHIT, kinda like alot of the comments on here, and Gm has issues and I am gad I am not on there ship.

Just because his comments are harsh and not limited to GM, does not make them bullshit.

FWIW history will prove his analysis to be pretty damn close to reality. The trouble is that many won't realize it until it is too late. I don't know how big the bankruptcy has to be before people are convinced that GM and Ford are in serious financial trouble...and that simply not paying the executives (which sounds great) won't even come close to turning things around.

Money doesn't grow on trees and unless the UAW starts a printing operation with daily shipments of spendable cash to GM, Ford and DCx, the problems won't go away without applying some real-world common sense to work rules, elimination of the jobs bank in addition to worker paid portions of health care etc. It simply won't be a yes/no choice over the next contract. Some things simply won't be on the table at all. The leadership of GM, the UAW etc have to prepare the members for that. To not do so is irresponsible.

dave1w41

10-19-2005, 08:09 PM

First most of this losers comments are BULLSHIT, kinda like alot of the comments on here, and Gm has issues and I am gad I am not on there ship.

If he's wrong on this you'd better write it down in the dust on your dash because it would be a rare occasion. The guy is an equal opportunity crusader and has been right a lot more than he has been wrong.

steve442

10-20-2005, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by dave1w41
If he's wrong on this you'd better write it down in the dust on your dash because it would be a rare occasion. The guy is an equal opportunity crusader and has been right a lot more than he has been wrong.

They are working on it, get over it!!!, your right dont blame poor products, a shitty warranty, major issues like the wonderful dealership experience, major issue right after the car is out of warranty, (tranmissions, Engines, axles, ) and they say your out of warranty tuff luck!
The issues of massive waste at the assembly plants, and parts plants, the out of control health care, that should be the big topic, how the heck did I ever figure that could be part of the problem, I am sorry, countinue blaming the union guy.

steve442

10-20-2005, 03:24 AM

NEW YORK - For the past few years, General Motors Chief Executive G. Richard "Rick" Wagoner Jr. has complained to anyone who would listen about his company's engorged health care costs. And for good reason--the long-term liability is near $80 billion. It costs the company $6 billion per year to insure its workers and retirees, and many of GM's competitors have no such beast with which to wrestle.

On a per-vehicle basis, GM reminds us, legacy costs add up to $1,500, which rivals can use to add features or lower prices.

These are dramatic, and very real, numbers. But they also provide a tidy excuse to the financial community for GM's miserable performance, both on dealer lots and on income statements. Market share continues to slowly erode (down 1.1 percentage points this year), and in GM's third-quarter earnings announcement Monday, the company reported a $1.6 billion loss for the quarter, pushing its losses for the year to $3.8 billion.

"We've said for a while that [health care] has been the single line of cost uncompetitiveness for us," Wagoner said during a conference call with investors.

But Wagoner also announced a tentative agreement with the United Auto Workers that would have factory workers pay for more of their health care benefits. No details yet about who would pay what, but Wagoner said the agreement would trim $15 billion from GM's long-term liability, and reduce the annual health care bill by $3 billion. "This is a big move today," Wagoner said.

GM, it seems, is finally starting to get its health care situation under control. Other bogeymen that GM has complained about in the recent past have also been slain or weakened. GM's pension plan is fully funded. After years of complaining about the benefit Japanese competitors enjoy from an artificially weak yen, the dollar has weakened, providing at least a bit more parity.

Wagoner also said the company is on track to cut a total of $5 billion from its annual structural costs by the end of next year, and $1 billion in parts costs next year. GM said it is planning to sell a controlling stake in GMAC, a move that will raise untold billions of cash.

As Wagoner slowly puts the house in order, his excuses--legitimate or exaggerated--are running out. Now he has one major task to tackle, and it's harder than trimming any cost: to engineer and build great, profitable, desirable vehicles in every segment, for weakened brands such as Buick and Pontiac, and for strong brands such as Chevy, Cadillac and GMC.

Wagoner knows this. He has repeatedly said the company needs to work on the revenue side of the business as much as it needs to cut costs. The outlook for revenue, though, is stormy at best. October sales are said to be very weak for GM and for the industry, and forecasters say this weakness could continue into next year.

"It's a pretty cloudy crystal ball," said John Devine, GM's chief financial officer.

Also, the company is embarking on a new marketing strategy that shies away from cash-back and employee-discount incentive programs and instead puts lower price tags on the vehicles to begin with. GM calls it "total value pricing," but dealers and customers love big rebates. If October sales are any indication, the shift in strategy could be excruciating.

The next great hope for GM is a portfolio of redesigned large SUVs such as the Chevy Tahoe and Cadillac Escalade, due to go on sale early next year. The vehicles are attractive, with beautiful new interiors, and they are some of the most profitable vehicles GM builds. But they are being launched into the teeth of higher gas prices and a swoon in sales of large SUVs.

Redesigned and new versions of cars for Chevrolet and Saturn, shown to reporters earlier this year, look very sharp; they will trickle into dealer showrooms over the next two or three years. Also coming: hybrid pickups and SUVs that will finally get GM into a game dominated by Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ) and Honda Motor (nyse: HMC - news - people ).

They'd better all be hits. "For GM, the scary ride is just beginning, and much has to still go right," said Glenn Reynolds, a capital structure analyst at CreditSights, in a report.

GM hasn't been able, for one reason or another, to produce great vehicles across its whole portfolio for decades, and this has led to the restructuring pain that employees and shareholders are suffering through now. But the much-needed relief Wagoner announced will provide the company with cash it desperately needs. If Wagoner can somehow spin this cash into a string of great vehicles, the pain will have been worthwhile.

steve442

10-20-2005, 04:05 AM

that better??

MACGI 98 Z28

10-20-2005, 05:42 AM

GM hasn't been able, for one reason or another, to produce great vehicles across its whole portfolio for decades,because there designer have gone to Honda or Toyota and this has led to the restructuring pain that employees and shareholders are suffering through now. But the much-needed relief MACGI 98 Z28 announced will provide the company with cash it desperately needs. If MACGI 98 Z28 can somehow spin this, which he will, the pain will have been unbeareable

GM's current/latest designs don't lack much IMHO they are making a solid product for the most part. Nonetheless, past restructurings have never addressed the biggest legacy costs still resting with hourly workers.

No spin, they are out of money and it has to come from somewhere. Life has a lot of truisms in it and the one that is the most true...Shit rolls downhill. I think you are intelligent enough to figure out in an organization like GM who it is going to eventually land on. Just tell us all, aside from Washington DC getting a national health care program going (not going to happen) where are they going to find the money? Show us some math proving that cutting all the waste in plants, and the executive salaries will right the ship. Just tell us all WHERE IT CAN COME FROM. I know you don't care, but it IS coming from somewhere and I have seen no information that anything of real significance can come from anyplace other than UAW workers.

Where have I defended Wagoner? I think he is a weak leader that is needlessly bringing the company to the brink and probably needs to go. GM has moved way too slowly to update its vehicles, get rid of the ugly, enhance performance and make decent interiors. They are making good stuff now that looks decent and interiors are vastly improving but on average I would say that they are following nearly everyone from Japan that matters by about 3-4 years (Toyota, Honda and Nissan). GM would be in a lot better shape and might actually have made some gains on its competitors if its 2006 cars had come out when they should have...around 2003. Wagoner needed to find a way to do that and he just didn't get it done. The lack of a RWD car to compete with the 300/Magnum/Charger is an inexcusable failure.

Ford is in a similar situation. However, beyond the Mustang and SUV's, Ford is having serious problems getting real interest in any of its cars. The Fusion/Milan/Zepher counterparts are finally here four years late, all three of them are ugly as sin and I have serious concerns that they won't go anywhere GM will at least continue to sell near 300k Impalas a year without too much trouble.

No need for the personal attacks either.

I know change is scary and painful and you feel the need to lash out. I understand it...and I forgive it. :D

steve442

10-20-2005, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
GM's current/latest designs don't lack much IMHO they are making a solid product for the most part. Nonetheless, past restructurings have never addressed the biggest legacy costs still resting with hourly workers.

No spin, they are out of money and it has to come from somewhere. Life has a lot of truisms in it and the one that is the most true...Shit rolls downhill. I think you are intelligent enough to figure out in an organization like GM who it is going to eventually land on. Just tell us all, aside from Washington DC getting a national health care program going (not going to happen) where are they going to find the money? Show us some math proving that cutting all the waste in plants, and the executive salaries will right the ship. Just tell us all WHERE IT CAN COME FROM. I know you don't care, but it IS coming from somewhere and I have seen no information that anything of real significance can come from anyplace other than UAW workers.

Where have I defended Wagoner? I think he is a weak leader that is needlessly bringing the company to the brink and probably needs to go. GM has moved way too slowly to update its vehicles, get rid of the ugly, enhance performance and make decent interiors. They are making good stuff now that looks decent and interiors are vastly improving but on average I would say that they are following nearly everyone from Japan that matters by about 3-4 years (Toyota, Honda and Nissan). GM would be in a lot better shape and might actually have made some gains on its competitors if its 2006 cars had come out when they should have...around 2003. Wagoner needed to find a way to do that and he just didn't get it done. The lack of a RWD car to compete with the 300/Magnum/Charger is an inexcusable failure.

Ford is in a similar situation. However, beyond the Mustang and SUV's, Ford is having serious problems getting real interest in any of its cars. The Fusion/Milan/Zepher counterparts are finally here four years late, all three of them are ugly as sin and I have serious concerns that they won't go anywhere GM will at least continue to sell near 300k Impalas a year without too much trouble.

No need for the personal attacks either.

I know change is scary and painful and you feel the need to lash out. I understand it...and I forgive it. :D

I dont see any personal attacks:D Hope you laughed alittle bit
And yes waste is a huge issue, this isnt a insurance company that might waste paper,or staples, they are parts/assembly plants, I know you dont believe me but , 5 MILLION in one month for scrap is unexceptible period, where I work, x12months, :eek(:Just tell us all WHERE IT CAN COME FROM. I know you don't care,) yes I do care, I wouldnt even be having this discussion if I didnt care.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-20-2005, 01:36 PM

I dont see any personal attacks

Re-Read your post of 10-19-2005 11:05 PM.

steve442

10-20-2005, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
Re-Read your post of 10-19-2005 11:05 PM.

??????

Coach Brady Hoke

10-20-2005, 10:52 PM

MACGI 98 Z28

10-21-2005, 02:03 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,172862,00.html

Ouch!:(

ULTIMTEORANGESS

10-21-2005, 02:16 AM

the big three are in serious shit right now.

steve442

10-21-2005, 05:20 PM

Oh I am sure this still isnt good enough!!!!

As we said on Monday, the tentative agreement on health care with GM is the result of an in-depth analysis of GM’s financial situation and weeks of intense discussions with GM.

“Our goal in the discussions with GM was to provide the best possible health care benefits and the strongest possible long-term protections for UAW-GM active and retired members. While the tentative agreement will require sacrifices from both active workers and retirees, and their surviving spouses, we believe the tentative agreement is an essential step toward ensuring that GM is a competitive and financially sound corporation that can continue to provide good wages and benefits for decades to come.

“UAW-GM active workers and retirees have long enjoyed some of the best health care coverage of any industrial workers in America, and they will continue to do so under the terms of the tentative agreement.

“If the tentative agreement is ratified and approved by the court, active UAW-GM workers will forego $1 an hour in future pay increases, through the deferral of part of the future quarterly cost-of-living adjustments and the 3 percent wage increase scheduled for September 2006. In addition, starting in December 2006, an additional 2 cents of each quarterly COLA (Cost of Living Adjustment) will be deferred. However, health care coverage for UAW-GM active workers will continue with no changes, other than several administrative changes and increases in drug co-payments.

“We succeeded in protecting the people who need it most: our lower-income retirees. UAW-GM retirees with GM pension incomes of $8,000 and less and whose GM pension benefit rate is $33.33 per month per year of service or less will not be affected by the proposed changes in the tentative agreement. Their health care coverage will continue as is, except for administrative changes.

“Other UAW-GM retirees will be required to pay modest monthly premiums of $10 for individual coverage and $21 for family coverage. Deductibles and co-pays will be implemented.

“The tentative agreement asks every UAW-GM member, active and retired, to make sacrifices so that everyone can continue to receive excellent health care coverage today and in the future.

“We believe the tentative agreement is an innovative and equitable way to address the health care cost issue at GM.

“However, as we have said many times before, no one union and no one company can solve America’s health care crisis. America is the only advanced nation in the world without some form of national health care – and U.S. businesses and America’s working families are paying a high price for this nation’s uncompetitive public policies. Indeed, GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler are benefiting from Canada’s national health care system.

“The UAW has long advocated single-payer national health insurance as the most cost-effective and fairest way to fix America’s health care crisis. Today, we are more determined than ever to make single-payer national health insurance a reality.”

dave1w41

10-21-2005, 05:28 PM

Oh I am sure this still isnt good enough!!!!

It isn't enough. The current UAW employees basically don't pay anything even now and the annual premium for retirees is about $250 for a single person and about $750 for a family. For it to be fair it should be at least $100/month for a family and $50/month for a single person. FWIW, I pay $250+/mo and in 2006 it will be $320/mo. Part of the reason that I pay more is because I am carrying people who won't carry their own. I would have expected at least $100/mo for a family minimum; preferably $200 for both retirees and active employees. It is very disappointing that the UAW fell so short in doing what is necessary to meet what is fair and reasonable.

DP02SS

10-22-2005, 05:33 AM

Mr GTO wants the blue collar guys that build the cars to make 35 cents per hour so GM can compete with the chinese hourly wages. Cause lord knows its as cheap to live in the USA as it is in China. It's never enough with these corporations. Gm should just get it over with and file bancruptcy(remove all promised financial obligations) and move all the plants to bangladesh. Its the only way they will be 21st century "profitable". The union will just make concession after concession just to see the common guy get fucked in the ass in the end. (see delta). For those that think the guys that actually buoild the cars are just liabilities go F yourself.

D

DP02SS

10-22-2005, 05:53 AM

What was that car company that GM bought that they have lost billions on . Oh I forgot its the hourly worker that the only problem.

D

DP02SS

10-22-2005, 05:56 AM

Several years ago we never heard shit about all this "spiraling downward in flames talk" until the Koreans started building better cars and offered longer warranties. I dont know if I even believe GM financial situation.

D

steve442

10-22-2005, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by dave1w41
It isn't enough. The current UAW employees basically don't pay anything even now and the annual premium for retirees is about $250 for a single person and about $750 for a family. For it to be fair it should be at least $100/month for a family and $50/month for a single person. FWIW, I pay $250+/mo and in 2006 it will be $320/mo. Part of the reason that I pay more is because I am carrying people who won't carry their own. I would have expected at least $100/mo for a family minimum; preferably $200 for both retirees and active employees. It is very disappointing that the UAW fell so short in doing what is necessary to meet what is fair and reasonable.

2 things, sounds like you need a union and you agreed to your package, dont like it, maybe its time to move on.

steve442

10-22-2005, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by dave1w41
It isn't enough. The current UAW employees basically don't pay anything even now and the annual premium for retirees is about $250 for a single person and about $750 for a family. For it to be fair it should be at least $100/month for a family and $50/month for a single person. FWIW, I pay $250+/mo and in 2006 it will be $320/mo. Part of the reason that I pay more is because I am carrying people who won't carry their own. I would have expected at least $100/mo for a family minimum; preferably $200 for both retirees and active employees. It is very disappointing that the UAW fell so short in doing what is necessary to meet what is fair and reasonable.

And to be fair, I thought it was going to be more too.

fastolman

10-22-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by steve442
sounds like you need a union.

:rolleyes:

MACGI 98 Z28

10-22-2005, 03:20 PM

2 things, sounds like you need a union and you agreed to your package, dont like it, maybe its time to move on.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/delphi22e_20051022.htm

Looks like they need one too...oops, they do have one.

Once the situation gets bad enough, the Union doesn't matter.

Asked about the possibility of strikes that could disrupt the flow of parts to Delphi customers, Miller replied, "Any plant that wants to be at the top of our plant closure list should engage in industrial action as a way of sending that message."

steve442

10-22-2005, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by MACGI 98 Z28
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/delphi22e_20051022.htm

Looks like they need one too...oops, they do have one.

Shouldnt this be in the DELPHI thread

Once the situation gets bad enough, the Union doesn't matter.
thanks to greedy executives, and management.

Your quote above shows your total lack of compasion for the average working guy, you would like nothing more then to see unions bust up, it wont happen, why didnt you include the rest of the quote?

(Asked about the possibility of strikes that could disrupt the flow of parts to Delphi customers, Miller replied, "Any plant that wants to be at the top of our plant closure list should engage in industrial action as a way of sending that message."

But at least one worker said he's willing to take that chance.

"I'd rather walk off the job knowing I'm standing up for what I believe in," said Gary Krantz, 31, a five-year employee at a Delphi thermal plant in Lockport, N.Y.

Krantz says that if Delphi drops his wages to $10 an hour, "it's either this or McDonald's.")

And who let it get so bad? the MANAGEMENT. the ones that know whats best.
People that have never worked for a union, and just listen to hearsay. or what there anti-union professer said, In my opinion until you have personaly experienced it, your talking out your ASS.
How many union shops have you worked in? how many union shops have you been in?Do you have issues with all unions or just the UAW? your turning it into the blame game.
It would be like me bad mouthing all insurance companies. And I am sure that would be a positive thread.
And again with a union well reread the post from 10/21/05.

MACGI 98 Z28

10-23-2005, 12:19 AM

Your quote above shows your total lack of compasion for the average working guy, you would like nothing more then to see unions bust up, it wont happen, why didnt you include the rest of the quote?

I do have compassion for the working man. I do not have compassion for denial of reality. Managament is not totally to blame, the competitive environment is NOT the same as it used to be. Have you seen an 06 Hyundai Sonata? Those are not shitmobiles like the Japanese sent here in the early 70's. They are real cars that have real build quality. They are gunning for the throat of GM and Ford with a car like that. Their workers are not complaining, they are well paid and looking forward to building 300k of them a year. They are going to sell about 150k of those right out of the box. The losers won't be Toyota and Honda. Ford's Fusion, 500 and GM's Impala, Malibu will eat those losses. Union workers will lose jobs and GM/Ford's stock will shrink and their corporations will get smaller. Those are FACTS.

And who let it get so bad? the MANAGEMENT. the ones that know whats best.
People that have never worked for a union, and just listen to hearsay. or what there anti-union professer said, In my opinion until you have personaly experienced it, your talking out your ASS.
How many union shops have you worked in? how many union shops have you been in?Do you have issues with all unions or just the UAW? your turning it into the blame game.
It would be like me bad mouthing all insurance companies. And I am sure that would be a positive thread.
And again with a union well reread the post from 10/21/05.

Management bears the blame for not recognizing and responding appropriately to the future competitive environment. Union workers should not be getting the shaft, they should have had honest managers and union leaders explaining the dawning global situation to them years ago. Everyone should have worked TOGETHER to do what could be done to moderate excesses and to keep jobs here. If that meant that people get paid less, pay more for medical and have different retirement structures, those things should have been faced before, not NOW. Proactivity beats the dog shit out of reactivity every day of the week.

The UAW, Ford and GM are headed for a death like children playing on railroad tracks vs. one where someone gets old, loses their senses and dies slowly. Metaphors are always used to describe situations like this...That said, I would rather go to the old-folks home for a few games of shuffleboard with my aching back than be cut down by the train while playing on the tracks and die as I quickly bleed-out trying to reattach my legs.

As for my quote from Mr. Miller, what the quote did not contain was the sound of his bodyguards saying "to hell with this, this man is insane." My use of the quote was only because I have never in my life seen someone talk like that to union workers. In his case it may not be the smartest thing he has ever done. The use was only for shock value, as it shocked me.