Clutch & Hydraulic Suggestions for my setup?

[98 SNAKE EATER]

First off, my car is basically stock....

Only mods I have are K&N, Shifter, Custom 3.5" Catback and Drag Radials...

It currently has a ZO6 Clutch, "277" Master (w/Drill Mod) and "145" Slave....

It's good enough for me to get sideways in 2nd, scratch 3rd and ocassionally chirp 4th, depending on surface:drive:

And that's on Nitto DR's!!


Only problem I've had is that the pedal pressure seems to change:\

It noticably engages lower with every hard shift I make...

I don't notice it much if I just randomly tear through the gears, but if I make back to back runs, I can definitely feel it....


I've pretty much passed this off as normal since I've driven quite a few LS1's that had the same problem:\



Well, this morning I noticed the pedal pressure had dropped quite a bit during startup and that the fluid was low...

Didn't see any leaks, but after driving to the shop and bleeding the system (I didn't notice any air), it worked fine again....


Then on my way home tonight, I decided to make a couple of passes down a backroad and I felt a considerable lack in pressure as I went through the gears:(

Had to shift slowly into 4th and 5th to avoid grindage....


Bled it once more and it felt better, but it's definitely leaking down:(


Rather than just f#cking around with new Hydraulics, I figure I'd kill two birds and throw in a new clutch as well:cool:


But which one:dunno:


I can read through endless threads about people who claim that their clutches hold up to 6700 RPM dumps on Slicks and 4 gear burnouts, but none of that appeals to me since my car is basically stock:\

What's important is that fits right the first time WITHOUT SHIMMING THE SLAVE, has minimal chatter and that it disengages/engages properly for consistant high RPM shifts:cool:

If it just so happens to have more holding power than the ZO6 clutch, well that's just gravy:p

I just don't want to run into any problems that others have had....


A few years ago, people were throwing new aftermarket clutches in their cars and bragging about the holding power and whatnot, only to have it crap out on them a few thousand miles later:(

Either the Clutch would just fry or the slaves would start to leak due to excess pressure or it just wouldn't disengage properly at high RPM's, tearing up the Synchros in the tranny:no:

I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO ME!!



I've been out of the Aftermarket loop for some time now, so here are a few things I'd like to know:


1) What Clutch would you recommend that is GUARANTEED to work?

2) What Adjustible Master Cylinders are there to choose from and which should I go with?

3) What Slave Cylinder should I use?



I'm on a budget, so the fancy Carbon Fiber Kevlar triple disc Top Fuel Drag clutches are out of the question:rolleyes:

The same goes for Centerforce and McLeod....

I've read far too much about the problems associated with their LS1 clutches that I won't even consider them as an option:\





Suggestions?

[jrp]

you'll find spec 3 to be the most popular. holds more power then you'll probably throw at it. Mcleod makes a nice adj. master cyl and the 288 01+ slaves fine.

IB elmer mentions the clutchmaster kit ;)

[1BADFIREHAWK]

I agree here. I know that COUNTLESS people have gone with the spec 3 and it has gotten mostly compliments. Its inexpensive and holds like twice a ZO6 clutch. The only complaint some people get are some slight chatter. Most it goes away but some doesn't. The clutchmasters is another one I have heard great things about but it tends to run about twice as much or a little less. Mcleod does make an adjustable master for around 300 I think. And the 288 01' slave with the drill mod would be the best. Hope that helps dood.:)

[thechef]

i recimend SPEC 3 xpad for your car and stock 01-02 hydralics it will keep the stock pedal pressure ,take a serious beating and not break the bank

Elmer will say go with clutch masters but its double the price and not many have used it that we know of as they seem to be new to the ls1 market

[98 SNAKE EATER]

So an adjustible Master is not required with the Spec:think:

Also, other than McLeod, what adjustible ones do I have to choose from:dunno:

[1BADFIREHAWK]

Thats pretty much your only choice unfortunetly. The spec does not require an adjustable master but lots of people like the flexibility of changing the engagement point. The spec should feel close to the stock unit.

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Ok, as of right now, I'm considering Spec, Ram or another ZO6:\

I know Elmer loves his ClutchMaster, but I think he's the only one in the world that has one lol


Now lets talk price....

I know I can get a complete ZO6 replacement clutch (w/flywheel) for $300 bux...

What does the Spec X-Pad (w/flywheel) go for:think:

[eboggs_jkvl]

Still running......................

I won't say what 'cause you know.

[1BADFIREHAWK]

The spec without flywheel goes for around 375. You get pressure plate, throw out bearing, clutch disk and alignment tool I believe. You can just have your stock flywheel turned for cheap. The Z06 cluch will be a waste of your time if you plan on doing ANY mods IMO.

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Ok, so which model is that?

I see Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Yadda, Yadda, Yadda....

And do they all come with the TB?

I won't really need it since the Slave already comes with one....

Also, I checked out Spec's site and they state that there's an option to remove rotating mass for $79 bux:think:

What's all that about:confused:

[1BADFIREHAWK]

The one I was quoting was the spec stage 3. Thats the most common one used. I think they all come with the TB but I'm not positive. PM the mod "the chef" and he can give you all the details about his kit that he sells. I don't know what they mean by lower the rotating mass, unless its like a lighter disk or something. I could see what they mean if they were talking about the flywheel.

[thechef]

the lighter option if more of a racing set up and not for a street car

we have the best prices on SPEC and we can take care of ya call my sales person Guy and he will give ya the pricing
1-203-619-4732 ask for Guy or call the shop 1-203-269-1539
check out our new site and click on SPEC and see the different set ups

www.eastsideperformance.net

[98 SNAKE EATER]

DOH!!

Didn't realize you replied....

I just sent you a PM regarding this:sillyme:

[98 SNAKE EATER]

OK, I went to a few other sites just for reference and noticed there are a few Spec Stage 3's available:think:

Over at ESP, the Stage 3 looks like this:

http://www.eastsideperformance.net/stage3.gif

(Blue Flat Type Pressure Plate w/4 Pad Disc)

I'm guessing the X-Pad refers to the X shaped disc:dunno:


Now over at LMP, there are two different Stage3's available....

One with a Flywheel and one without, however, the pix look different:think:

Here's the Stage3 SC093:

http://www.lmperformance.com/images/parts/sc093.jpg

(Blue Flat Type Pressure Plate w/round Disc)

And here's the Stage3 SC733-CA:

http://www.lmperformance.com/images/parts/small-jpg/sc733ca.jpg

(Standard Type Pressure Plate w/round 6 pad Disc)


Which one do I get:dunno:

[1BADFIREHAWK]

:think: I guess I never looked at them all. I think I would choose the first one. I think the X-pad is the newest but honestly I have no clue what the difference is. It would seem like the more pads the better kinda.....

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Well, I took chef's advice and made an order with ESP:cool:


Spec Stage 3 X-Pad and Flywheel:)


I have a feeling the cool lookin Flat type pressure plates shown above are just general reference pics and that the one I'll end up with will look like stock:think:


Can anyone confirm this:dunno:






Rick

[2000 Tran Zam]

Snake eater, i would also recommend you get a mcleod adjustable master cylinder. the reason being is because if you have a higher shift point then 6200, you will have trouble with the clutch disengaging and letting you shift properly at high rpms'. the reason i know this is because it is happeneing to me right now:mad:. me along with a possible other person is looking into gettin a gp together on the adj. master cylinder. if you interested let me know and maybe we can put something together. from what jason at thunder racing told me, when you are shifting at a high rpm, the clutch fingers wont release because of the large amount of centrifugal force, but the master cylinder helps relieve that pressure. ive got the spec 3 clutch, so i can relate to your situation. hope that helps some :D

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Hmm

How would an adjustible master relieve centrifugal force of the clutch:think:

Isn't the adjustible rod simply to raise or lower engagement height of the pedal:dunno:




Rick

[2000 Tran Zam]

im not exactly sure, jason at thunder racing was the one that told me that it would fix all my problems. he said it also controls pedal pressure. so i would think if it could control pedal pressure, it controls the hydrolics in it and would relieve enough pressure for the clutch to disengage :dunno:

He's the one to ask, and he said its a must if you go to their shop for clutch installs, he swears by it. i just wanna fix my problem and dont want anyone else to run into the same problem as me :D

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Hmm, I might just have to give him a call so he or Angie can explain it to me...


AFAIK, there are two problems with Centrifugal force at high RPM's

1) Negative Centrifugal Vacuum of the Pressure Plate.... (causes pedal to stick to floor at high RPM's)

This is when the pressure plate fingers are pushed in and can't return to normal position due to the CF at high RPM's:o

The only fix I know for this is to get a pressure plate with more holding power that can handle the RPM's (like a 3 finger spring type)....


2) Mass Rotational Disc Force.... (causes grindage or missed shifts at high RPM's)

This usually happens when a heavy clutch disc is used...

The mass rotational force of the clutch disc at high RPM's keeps the disc spinning quickly when it should be letting the shaft slow down to help match the next gear:\



Since the Spec Stage 3 has a stronger pressure plate than the stocker, combined with an X-Pad disc (which I'm guessing is lighter than stock), I don't see how I will run into either problem, but then again, anything's possible:dunno:


If the pedal feel is as inconsistant as my ZO6 was (lowering engagement height as the clutch heats up with every hard shift), then I can see the adjustible master helping by setting the engagement very high so that it ends up at around mid height by the time you hit the traps, but that's more of a bandaid than anything:\





Why couldn't GM stick with the "Z-Bar"??:mad:

I can powershift my 70 T/A like mad all day long without any noticable difference in pedal feel:cool:

[98 SNAKE EATER]

OK, I got my clutch on time today:), but I was a bit dissapointed when I opened up the box:(

First off the pressure plate looks more like a standard LS1 PP than the kewl lookin flat type PP shown on the site:\

No biggie, since I kinda figured the flat type might be for an LT1 car:dunno:

Then I picked up the pressure plate and glanced at the disc....

It's a 6 puck disc, not the 4 puck shown on the site:confused: (not at all what I expected)....

I mean, if it's an "X-Pad", shouldn't it have 4 pads:think:

I forgot to ask if new mounting bolts for the flywheel and pressure plate were included, so I sifted through all the packing peanuts hoping to find some (I hate that messy $h!t), but didn't see any....

Again, no biggie....

Then I did some more digging and found a clutch tool WITH A NEW PILOT BEARING!!:eek:

I specifically asked if it would come with one and was told no, so I wasted a good hour yesterday going to 3 different dealers trying to find one that had it:sillyme:

Now I gotta head back out to return it and get my $12 bucks back:rolleyes:

Did some more digging and found a plastic bag with instructions, stickers and A SHIM:eek:

The paperwork said that it was required for all F-Bodies:no:

Exactly what I DID NOT want to deal with:bashhead:

Gave ESP a call and they said that they never install any shims, but that if the instructions tell me to do so, that I should:\

Also said that I'm not the only one to call about the 6 puck disc (some other guy called and was pretty nasty about it lol), but assured that it is in fact an X-Pad:cool:



So, I guess it's pretty much a crap shoot with the shim, since they never install them, but I'm gunna give it a shot anyways and hope for the best:xfings:




Rick

[thechef]

Rick dont worry you have the right parts

and yea we donot use the shims and have never had a problem i have a pile of them here i can send them to you for coasters:p