Which fuel cells for cruise tuning?

[tici]

I’m a little confused about which fuel cells I have to monitor to tune the LTFT on my 98 Trans Am.
An information source uses the average of 1-19 for cruise. 20 should be for idle, 21 for deceleration and 22 for WOT.
Another source uses cells 6-14 for cruise…
I’m planning to use a MAFT.
Any idea?

Thanks - Stefano

[JandJsTA]

1-19 was the original thought until ppl did some more work and realized that 6-14 were the true cruise trims http://smiley.tzo.com/fbody/atap/atap_ftc.htm ..... and remember .. don't averge those cells in excel ... they all must be 0 or slightly negative to do you any good for WOT A/F tuning :)

[tici]

good information! Thanks.
I think that a LS1-edit tune would take care of the complete fuel curve, what happens with a MAFT? This device just modify the entire fuel curve adding a certain %, so there will be optimized cells and other too rich or too lean... or not?

I just was thinking at a MAFT because I wanted something simple... should I go with edit? I'm just afraid to play day and night with it, looking for the ultra perfect tuning and risk to mess up everything. Your suggestion? Buy or not to buy?

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by tici
good information! Thanks.
I think that a LS1-edit tune would take care of the complete fuel curve, what happens with a MAFT? This device just modify the entire fuel curve adding a certain %, so there will be optimized cells and other too rich or too lean... or not?

I just was thinking at a MAFT because I wanted something simple... should I go with edit? I'm just afraid to play day and night with it, looking for the ultra perfect tuning and risk to mess up everything. Your suggestion? Buy or not to buy?

For what you need the MAFT will be fine.. it does adjust the entire BASE/cruise range with the base setting and WOT with the wot setting ... but believe me most of us adjust EDIT the same way... we have yet to find a simple but perfect cell by cell adjustment even though there is a injector flow rate table to change or a MAF table there is no simple way to correlate that to cells even though some have tried ... sometimes more expensive is not always better :)

[smiley]

:werd: what joe said ;)

quit using that crap c5forum excel sheet.... go here and download some better excel sheets.

http://smiley.tzo.com/fbody/atap/atap_files.htm

[tici]

Thanks Smiley!

A little problem: Ihave Atap for palm and it can record just 12 data at the same time... but I'll figure out a way to use your spreadsheets even with less numbers.

Another question about LS1 edit: I'll probably don't need it for tuning AF, what about the automatic transmission? Is there a real need for tuning or is it fine just like that?
I ask because it's hard to find posts about this topic.
I have a Power Programmer and I can change the transmission settings a little... it would be nice to change the shift points at part. throttle too, but at the end I don't know if it really changes a lot.

Tuner Cat is also coming out... does it edit the transmission too?

Your opinion?

[smiley]

A little problem: Ihave Atap for palm and it can record just 12 data at the same time... but I'll figure out a way to use your spreadsheets even with less numbers.

you can just copy / paste your data into the correct column on the excel sheet. (i *think* nmbws6 sheet will do that automatically for you).


sorry - i have an m6 so i don't pay too much attention to the a4-specific parts. but yes - edit can change that stuff. not sure if that alone is worth buying edit though... :dunno:

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by tici
Thanks Smiley!

A little problem: Ihave Atap for palm and it can record just 12 data at the same time... but I'll figure out a way to use your spreadsheets even with less numbers.

Another question about LS1 edit: I'll probably don't need it for tuning AF, what about the automatic transmission? Is there a real need for tuning or is it fine just like that?
I ask because it's hard to find posts about this topic.
I have a Power Programmer and I can change the transmission settings a little... it would be nice to change the shift points at part. throttle too, but at the end I don't know if it really changes a lot.

Tuner Cat is also coming out... does it edit the transmission too?

Your opinion?

The only thing I would suggest with a mildy modded car would be to adjust some of the torque management (edit) for better shifting without loss of power at WOT. There is also another tuner on the way http://hptuners.com/

[tici]

mhhh... HP Tuners LLC looks fine too. Edit would be better because of the amount of informations present on the web, but why not try something new? I'll see.

Smiley: I saw your document "cell definitions" and compared it to a couple of scans I made. It's very confusing: there are some situations of throttle angle, RPM, temperature and so on that should give a certain cell. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes really not. Example: WOT cell at 10% throttle or non load cell during acceleration.
Is the cell definition different depending on the year? Mine is a 98...
Is this list from GM or is it based on experience?
I tried to find this information on my Helm handbook: they talk about cells but they don't say which one is for what:(

[smiley]

are you talking about this page?
http://smiley.tzo.com/fbody/atap/atap_ftc.htm

or another page?

there can be slight variations depending on mods you have on your car. however those are the basic cells and no one has ever shown me proof otherwise. but i do know mods such as cam and heads can effect MAP and may skew your ftc table.

also remember - true wot = 100% engine load. if you are using atap, it cannot give you true engine load (always been a known bug with their software). so most people (almost all of us) "cheat" by using TPA to determin wot. so yes - you may see a ftc defined as wot when tpa is < 100%.... remember you are really trying to find engine load not tpa.

[smiley]

ps - yes there is some discussion about slight variences depending on model year. but i have a '98 car same as you ;)

as for finding out you ftc table.... we haven't really had any discussions here yet - but there are some nice threads over on www.ls1tuning.com if you want to go read them.

[tici]

Yes, this is the page.
There is a lot off difference between the 1-19 and the 6-14 average... 6-14 about +8, 1-19 about +4...
I played a little more with Excel: I see now more cleare in the stuff and your description seems now more realistic to me. :)

Something strange (or not): this weekend I made my RamAir functional. The biggest change is when I'm on a stop: after 1/2 minute I had temperatures of about 80 Celsius in the filter, nor it remains constant at the outside temperature. Hehe!
My O2 values at WOT are now in average 925mV. before they used to be 950... this always at speeds around 100 km/h. Do you see a connection between RamAir and mV?
Weather conditions are the same...

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by tici
Yes, this is the page.
There is a lot off difference between the 1-19 and the 6-14 average... 6-14 about +8, 1-19 about +4...
I played a little more with Excel: I see now more cleare in the stuff and your description seems now more realistic to me. :)


.. and this is a good thing as you were originally adjusting for +4 and you should have been adjusting for +8 .. and perhaps this is why you were not seeing desirable results :thumbup:

Originally posted by tici
Do you see a connection between RamAir and mV?
Weather conditions are the same...

It could have an effect your A/F ... you may be seeing more cooler, denser air but that shouldn't have a large effect on your physical A/F readings, the pcm would compensate :confused: you made no other changes ?

[smiley]

I played a little more with Excel: I see now more cleare in the stuff and your description seems now more realistic to me.

good! i don't claim to be a master - i'm trying to learn just as much as everyone else. i try not to post anything unless i have convinced myself it is true. if anyone can show that i'm wrong - i always ask for log files. and the more discussion we can start - the more we will all learn :cool:

don't forget - 1 log file may not be enough. perhaps the weather was different, maybe your test drive didn't hit all conditions, combination of many things.... so i'm not good enough to go by 1 log file. i pretty much log every time i drive.... at least then i can get some experience and have a history of my car and changes i make.


My O2 values at WOT are now in average 925mV. before they used to be 950... this always at speeds around 100 km/h. Do you see a connection between RamAir and mV?

you sure everything was the same? i would agree with your first statement... The biggest change is when I'm on a stop: after 1/2 minute I had temperatures of about 80 Celsius in the filter, nor it remains constant at the outside temperature.
but i don't know about the true ram air effect. supposably when the car moves faster air is supposed to get forced into the openings and into the engine. but as speed increases, the airflow around the car changes also.

i'm not thermal dynamics guy... but i've seen some interesting writeups on that topic :D but we'll save that for another thread ;)


ps - what is this "celcius" and "kilometers per hour" that you speak of? joe - you guys got that stuff in canada? :p ;) hehe

[tici]

oh well...
80 celsius is 176F and 100km/h is 63 Mi/h
It's still winter here and the outside temperature is 50F in average, so imagine what happens if you are sucking air at 176F...
When you start it keeps this temperature during 15 - 20 seconds: with this temperature you get about 25% less air... 25% less power... 75HP less!!!

No other changes than RamAir... but I'll do more scans to have a better average. I don't believe at a special "turbo effect" because of this, I just was wondering about the numbers.

Then I'll load the Hypercrap program to see how it works: apparently it gives more advance but also more KR, I'll check it.
Powerwise I never saw a gain, so now I will know why:cool:

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by smiley

ps - what is this "celcius" and "kilometers per hour" that you speak of? joe - you guys got that stuff in canada? :p ;) hehe

The rest of the world has already got the idea and flipped over EH :p .. big brother has got to hurry up and catch up ;)


As for the 176º... you are drawing in under hood temp while idling or sitting still at a light,It would take but a second when you get moving again to rectify that. You can always seal up the ram air so they only draw outside air, but then you need to watch the wet and rainy days as there is the possibility of drawing in water http://www.geocities.com/brian98ramair/Cold_Air_Pics.html I did my own and haven't had any problems. You should be makin some good HP at 50ºF. As for the Ram Air as I understand it the openings are not in the greatest position on the hood for a ram air effect at faster speeds so don't expect to much from that although it will draw in what your need :)

[tici]

The RamAir is an Suncoastcreations raptor hood.
I first had a K&N FIPK and made a box to fit the hood. I'll post a pic... It looks like the Volant product.
The Original Suncoast filter is quite expensive, so I decided to make an homemade system.

Where is Whitby? I've been one year in Brampton, 45 min west from Toronto. Is it close?

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by tici
The RamAir is an Suncoastcreations raptor hood.
I first had a K&N FIPK and made a box to fit the hood. I'll post a pic... It looks like the Volant product.
The Original Suncoast filter is quite expensive, so I decided to make an homemade system.

Where is Whitby? I've been one year in Brampton, 45 min west from Toronto. Is it close?

The BG ram air is meant for the stock WS6 hood .....Whitby is about 25 min East of Toronto :) If you're in Brampton now you need to go to the Great Lakes Forum (http://www.ls2.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=70) ... tons of ppl there from the Toronto and surrounding area and the season is about to start, drag, auto X, :drunk: :)

[tici]

here some pics of the "box":
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/460473/6
It looks like crap... but it's still raw. If it resists a month (heat + vibrations) I'll finish it up. Nice and smooth, color and a different seal.
It exactly fits the hood: to check it I closed the camera in the hood an took a couple of shots with the delay!:cool:

I'm back in Switzerland right now, so no chances for the forum:(

[JandJsTA]

Originally posted by tici
here some pics of the "box":
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/460473/6
It looks like crap... but it's still raw. If it resists a month (heat + vibrations) I'll finish it up. Nice and smooth, color and a different seal.
It exactly fits the hood: to check it I closed the camera in the hood an took a couple of shots with the delay!:cool:

I'm back in Switzerland right now, so no chances for the forum:(

In pic 5 I can see the IAT sensor .... odd you shouldn't be getting such high temp readings even sitting still if you have that in use now, it's sealed from under hood temps :confused:

.. to bad you have gone back.. the guys in Toronto would have loved to share a few beers and some chat :)

[tici]

Maybe I wasn't clear: I had 80 Celsius without the box and almost the same temperature as outside with box installed (5 - 15 Celsius in this week).
The inside of the box ist completely sealed from engine air and the IAT sensor measures only in the "fresh side".
The box is on PVC: it should be a good insulation from the engine heat.

Yes, it's a pity about being here and not there, but I had a project during only about one year and then I had to leave.
It was possible to continue there but with a Canadian contract. I wanted to stay there with a Swiss contract and this was too expensive for my company... so I went back.:rolleyes:
I still don't know if it was the right decision...

[DarkPhoenix]

I can see why you are getting such high temps from the IAT sensor. You want that sensor to be in the hose from the filter to the maf. By having it in the box it must be getting more heat from the engine and the high air temp must be causing all kinds of computerized issues. The MAF and MAP are saying things that are pretty inline with eachother, and then the IAT is throwing a curve ball. I would definately move the IAT sensor back to in the air intake hose from the filter to the maf to see if this solves the problem. Cool air box!!!

[tici]

Thank you for the positive comment!

But again: I had 80 Celsius (176F) WITHOUT box, this when I stopped for a red light.
Now WITH box I always have about the same temperature as when the car is moving, no matter how long I wait for the green light.

Result: FIPK alone is a crap because it sucks all the hot air from the engine bay. Sure this only when you don't move...
Imagine: you are at the stop, want to make a cool start (smoky tires and so on...) and because of the hot air you loose 1/4 of the power...!!!
The ECM then thinks "WTF is this?" and starts to change all the numbers...
Then you get mad with Atap...

It was better to buy the original filter from Suncoastcreations, but I first had the FIPK, then the hood.... So I figured out I had to build my own poor-man-cold-air-box;)

[DarkPhoenix]

Huh, I had no idea that the FIPK sucked that much hot air from the engine bay. One thing that I would do would be to switch back to the stock radiator support/lower air box and lid. Then do some logging and see if that lowers your IAT. You may make more power if you run the stock air intake as compared to the FIPK. Or bite the bullet and invest in the suncoast air box :(
Just throwing ideas out here, something to think about...